The Secrets of Storybuilding

A full episode description built to help discovery, explain the value of the conversation, and give viewers a clear reason to watch.

What happens when a career pivot leads you into one of the most influential messaging frameworks in modern business?

In this episode of Breaking the Blueprint, John Elbing joins Vinay Parmar and Iqbal Javaid for a deep conversation about why so many businesses still misunderstand storytelling — and why that mistake quietly damages growth.

John explains how a major career change led him into framework-led brand thinking, why clear positioning beats clever messaging, and why most companies still talk far too much about themselves. The discussion moves from customer reviews and brand trust to AI, organisational alignment, onboarding, contact centres, and why customer experience often breaks long before leaders realise it.

There is a strong thread through the whole episode: businesses often think they have a communication problem, when in reality they have a clarity problem. That affects sales, leadership, digital transformation, internal culture, and how customers decide whether to stay.

The AI section is especially timely. John explains why most current AI projects are failing, why trust matters more than hype, and why technology without narrative usually creates confusion rather than progress.

If you work in leadership, customer strategy, marketing, CX, transformation, or commercial growth, this episode gives practical thinking you can apply immediately.

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Transcript

Vinay 0:10

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Breaking the Blueprint podcast with myself Vinay Parmar and my co-host Iqbal Javaid. We are here to talk all things to do with customer loyalty, customer experience, really answering the question, how do we get customers to come back and do it again? And, we've got a really exciting guest, to talk to today with a really interesting topic, I think. So before we get into introducing John to all of you, Iqbal, how have you been and, how are things since the last podcast? Yeah, very well, thanks. It's, and it's been a few weeks since we met and, it, it feels like the whole world's falling apart around us at the moment since, the last episode. I'm pretty sure everything was pretty stable back then, so it's just, been, quite challenging in trying to Yeah.

Iqbal 0:58

what normal looks like we're trying to get on with everything. And, having con great conversations like this whilst all that's going on. And, yeah, it's, busy as ever. Really excited about today's episode and our guest. And, one of my favorite topics, we'll obviously go into in a second, all around storytelling, so you're looking forward to that. How about

Vinay 1:18

Yeah.

Iqbal 1:18

how have

Vinay 1:19

Yeah. I was, almost not here because I was in Dubai and I got back on the Thursday before everything went crazy on the Friday. So got back in by the skin of my teeth. yeah, and it's been a bit, it's been a busy, period. I've, I've been out doing a couple of, keynotes. I did a closing keynote for Swim England last week. and Yeah. that, so that was a really great event and that was all about engaging people in swimming and increasing the numbers of aquatics around participation. How do we do that? And getting an organization. That's a body that has lots of different stakeholders that they don't control, like leisure centers and suppliers and all those. So really talking about the internal part of working together to create the outside experience. That was quite a, that was quite a cool conference to do. And then the other thing I've become slightly obsessed with, I discovered a YouTube channel, by a guy called Matt Armstrong. I dunno if you've ever come across this guy, but I'm not a petrol head. I'm not into cars anyway. If most people that know me would not let me anywhere near the mechanics in their car because I'm likely to break something. but he buys these, He buys these supercars that have been wrecked and then rebuilds them with his dad in this, in, his garage in Leicester. and he's grown his following to 6.4 million followers. His videos get millions of followers, but it's not the car making that fascinates me. What I love watching is this guy is a mechanic. Clearly he knows his way around a car, but he's fixing cars that he has no experience of working on, and he's finding ways through challenges and he's using his learning from working on other cars and other things and bringing them. So at the moment, he's building a Bugatti, rebuilding a Bugatti Sheron and Bugatti won't supply him the parts because they don't agree with what he's doing. So he is navigating finding other parts from part of the VAG part of the Volkswagen group. You'll pick parts from somewhere else, but it'll also look at 3D printing stuff and just these really interesting novel ways to get through. So it's that whole, Finding different ways to solve the problem, and I liken it to the work that both you and I do when we're working with clients is that often we see the paralysis, don't we, from the perfect conditions and people having the perfect tools. And actually they often have more to their disposal than they think they do and they can get started with something.

Iqbal 3:32

Yeah.

Vinay 3:33

I just, it's great metaphor for that, but I'm just addicted to it. I just love him working through the challenge and then coming out at the end and,

Iqbal 3:39

I, it's the journey, isn't it? I think that's it is. you're on that journey with Matt Armstrong throughout seeing how

Vinay 3:45

yeah,

Iqbal 3:45

solve all of these challenges that he's, coming

Vinay 3:49

Yeah.

Iqbal 3:49

And, it's, as you say, it's very much like that in our lives as well. So

Vinay 3:53

Yeah, definitely.

Iqbal 3:54

What outcome you wanna achieve. It's actually you gotta have fun on the way as well, on that journey with, the people that you're with, yeah. No,

Vinay 4:04

Yeah,

Iqbal 4:04

resonates.

Vinay 4:05

amazing story as well from someone who started, I think, fixing his girlfriend's Audi TT on their driveway to now.

Iqbal 4:11

Yeah,

Vinay 4:11

He's a, he's, his, life has changed, in incredible. yeah. Brilliant. And, just a, yeah, really interesting thing to do and loosely linked to what we're gonna talk about today in terms of storytelling. 'cause Matt does a great job of telling the story on the, on the journey. But yeah. So let's introduce our guest, John Bin. Welcome to the podcast.

John 4:32

Hi. I am happy to be here with both of you, and, I'm sure we'll have a great conversation.

Vinay 4:38

Yeah. Yeah. So the Eagle Eyed viewers who normally watch our podcast will notice we're not in the same place at the same time as you usually are. So John, would you like to introduce yourself? Tell us a bit about you, your background. I know you've been, you spent a lot of time working with founders and startups, in various different guyses. but also, a little bit about where you are in the world, would be great.

John 5:00

Okay, I'm in Geneva, Switzerland, which is pretty calm right now, luckily. so I was born in the States and I've been here, but I've been here all, most of my life. I was a software engineer. I started out, with code, and then you get into project management and all this kind of thing. I did a, some of the few, the first, e-banking websites, at the turn of the century kind of thing for a few banks. and, I went back for an MBA in finance and I thought, oh wow, finance never again. but it's good to have some background. I quit all that to do some startups that didn't quite work out, but, great learning experience. Then I worked in digital marketing agencies and so I a little over 50, I think, what do I wanna do with my life? this combination of tech, finance, marketing, startups brought me, I was in this, entrepreneur world. so I started coaching startups through, state organizations, incubators, accelerators, and things like that. I really dived into these methods. I have a, this com compilation of like a hundred canvases where I use post-its. And I tried things, value proposition, canvas, this, and the, and all these things. And, and at one point I found that, these, the entrepreneurs were got a lot of insight, had, bright-eyed and bushy tailed, and then Monday morning they weren't quite sure what to do with it. And so I did this, training on storytelling, which was StoryBrand Don Miller, which is a, great framework for storytelling. And I started using that extensively I found that storytelling forces you You talk to people, I worked with, startups and some of 'em very early stage, but even companies, it's we do this, and this for all these people, for everyone. And there's this sort of mess explanation. And when you have to put little pieces into a storytelling framework, you have to say, who am I talking to? Who am I not talking to? is important? what is less important? it's easy for, someone outside to see what's more important. But for yourself, you're, I, but also to this and also this and this, mechanism not only gives you a story, which is, a great thing, it forces you to be clear and on your positioning, on who you work for, what you do, all that. And so then I've been, working on my own version of it, which I call story building, and we'll get into that, where I think, there's more to it. But, so now I work with companies and, start up and I teach and, do different things, around, you know, positioning, alignment, clarity, marketing, and all that.

Vinay 8:08

Amazing. Yeah. great. Look, there's, lots to unpack that you've already touched on three or four great areas, which I'm sure we'll get into in a bit more detail. but Yeah, look, just for context, you and I had a conversation, I think three or four, I think a couple of months ago now, I think maybe three months ago, beginning of the year, I think, where we dive, dove into this topic a little bit and chatted about your experience and what you've been up to. And I found it really fascinating. let's, shall we, let's, dive in, let's,

Iqbal 8:41

let's get into it, I think, yeah, John, I think what I love about your intro there is you told us a story, the journey that you've been on, and I, and, I love the way you framed it, so that's, gonna resonate and stick with us. And, I guess that's what this is all about, isn't it? what, working obviously in, in the industry for many years, we hear so many companies talk about storytelling and those, you, those words do get used a lot across businesses, but it means different things to different people. I would love to get your perspective on actually what is storytelling all about and why, is it so important?

John 9:15

I can give the standard answer that, we've been evolved. By using stories we communicate, by using stories we understand, by using stories. it's it all, everything we do comes down to stories. So why suddenly should that be different in business? when it's just facts and numbers and things, somehow that doesn't resonate. And if you can, build a story that connects much, much better. That storytelling has become this buzzword everything is storytelling. And some of it tips and tricks. hey, start with a hook and do this and dance on one leg while you do that and talk louder, and then talk slower, but less, and this and kind of thing. and that's a trick to make a little bit of engagement, but that doesn't really help you build the story. and so then thing like, a framework like the StoryBrand by Bunda Miller is this. structure of a story. So then that helps you build the story. but then you still have to know what story you're trying to build. and so, it pops up in all different things on, on, on social media, on, on a post and how you structure it and all that. then, it lost its meaning because it's just, storytelling and communication have become a little bit mixed. And, the storytelling has, is more than just, a good way of communicating.

Vinay 10:52

Yeah. It, is a, there's so many parallels of what's happening in customer experience. the, first point that I would have, or the comment I would have on what you just said is, it's storytelling is not theatrics, it's not the performance of the presentation, but it's, it's part of the mix. It's not, that's not what we're talking about here. all the things that you talked about, having the compelling hook, using pacing, using language stage crafts, that's different. And when I look at customer experience in a similar way, the word, the phrase customer experience has been, made to have all these other bits included. Yes. It's about customer experience. Yes, it's about contact centers, but that's not what it's really about. It's much broader than that. So I think that, I recognize that, in what you say is a parallel to the, world that, Ikal and I, tend to do a lot of work in. I, dunno what your thoughts on that.

Iqbal 11:44

I, for me, what's really, what really, resonates, particularly in customer experiences and storytelling is, brand can tell you their view of what their story is, and you may believe that to an extent, but actually you want proof of that. You wanna, see, okay, you are, you're telling me a great story here, but I'm, you're obviously gonna tell me this story, but what, actually, for me, what really works are things like customer reviews and things like that where customers are actually telling their story, in regards to how they interact with that brand and how it's impacted them. Simple things like, I bought this thing for my granddaughter and it really. changed her life or whatever it was that, that it, had an impact on the, that individual and that story is being told the customer's voice. And I, always find that really interesting is, there is one aspect of this. We, we speak about the brand telling a story, but actually getting your customers to tell a story, I think that's so much, so powerful. And maybe that's something we can, dig into as well. But, I guess we wanna start with the organization, how do they begin this journey of being able to build a story? and actually as you've said, we've talked, about the comparison between storytelling and story building, but I guess you've gotta start with a building first.

John 13:04

So there, there are a few things here that you said was interesting is that, my my company is called Standpoint because you have to, go from your customer's standpoint.

Iqbal 13:13

Yeah.

John 13:15

I, I love the idea of, customers telling their story and, my whole thing is to flip the script and for the company to tell their customer story. And not tell their own story. and also they have to fit in that story. the other thing you said was that there were this transformation, the first example that came to mind was, oh, and it changed her life. And I think customers are buying transformation. And so the story is about, your customer transformation. What I, why I, called method in book, story building is that there are all these frameworks out there that tell you, with this and then you, this is the kind of structure that is engaging. But then people put the wrong pieces in it. They say, since I offer this solution, the problem must be the fact that they don't have my solution. hey, and, so I, The story building is really going in to analyze, taking your customer standpoint, analyzing, their aspirations, their challenges, their situation, their trigger moments, all these things, finding their vocabulary, how they see the issue. and then, of course, at your offer, your company, your service, and seeing how that connects. then you can put it into a framework where you say, okay, start. This is the first. step and this is the second step. And this is the third step. And I have a very strong view on what those three steps are.

Vinay 14:52

Yeah.

John 14:53

but often it's just, people have the wrong, story. I worked for this NGO does water purification, and normally in a developing country, you'll ship by truck, and powder form and put it in the water purify the water. And they have a system where you produce the chlorine locally with electrolytes and water and salt. and we're talking about what the problem was that they solved. And in their mind they were, people are getting sick and so with their solution, people won't get sick. But when we dig a little bit deeper, the people that were gonna buy this system was, the real problem was that the truck got stuck in the mud, the truck wouldn't deliver sometimes, and then they would run out of chlorine and then people would get, the water would turn and things. So they were solving a logistic problem almost. And if they wanted to connect with their customers, you're, staying up waiting for that damn truck. with our solution, you'll be autonomous, you'll be local. and that shift in perspective I thought was, was really interesting.

Vinay 16:06

Yeah. Yeah. I, definitely, I, it's funny, I was, talking to a group of, housing associations. This went, this earlier this week, last week, sorry. And I did a session with them on about, we were talking about complaints data. And so what, and part of the premise of my conversation with them is, it's about how, it's not the data, but it's how you present the data to tell a compelling story to drive transformation and changing your organization. And people recognize the term storytelling, but actually the story building part is the bit that they missed. They have the component parts, but building the story to get buy into your initiative or idea or the thing that you need to change takes a different set of mechanics, I think. And I think partly, and again, you may, I dunno where, whether you agree with this or not. Sometimes I look at storytelling and I think that's the charismatic part of, the presentation. That's the charisma, that's the bit, that is the performative piece. You're telling the story, whatever, but actually character part. The thing that sits at the end of it is, really the foundational principles of how you build this compelling story, which you can then, which you can then communicate to your audience. And I think the second part, that you said, John, around, the customer's, viewpoint and listening to customers, we often hear so much in organizations. Yeah. We listen to our customers, we understand our customers, you segment them. And it's often either from a marketing perspective to how do we broadcast to the right people, or it's from a, how do we understand the demographics of the people that we're serving. But actually understanding your customer plays a really, key role in building the story. to your point, who are you talking to? what's their life like? What's their lived experience? How do you get into their shoes? So I thought what we could, what I'd like to dive into is that whole difference between, 'cause in our conversation we really focused in onto something that you said that was, that really got my brain ticking, right? The difference between storytelling. And story building, what is the difference and how do you go, how do you go about building the right story in the first place?

John 18:09

Okay. There's a lot of things there, but I'll, jump into that directly. So, I, I find that when we encounter a brand, and I know you're a lot about retention, have to get the right people first.

Iqbal 18:22

Yep.

John 18:23

encounter a brand. First thing you do even often unconsciously, is you need to recognize yourself in the brand. So if I go on to, I'm an independent consultant and I'm looking for a customer relationship management, A CRM system, and I go on a website and it says we're the best for teams. And I think I'm not a team and I've scrolled past and probably their service would work fine for me too, but somehow I'm not their target audience. You walk down the street, you wanna have a coffee with a friend and you pass three coffee, three cafes, and then suddenly the fourth one is the one because somehow you recognize yourself in it. and I find, companies don't often do that. They say, Hey, we do this. And it's up to you to say, is that for big companies or small companies? do they like people like me? Do they understand me? So if you can. you can a way to describe your customer in a way where they really recognize themselves. If I land on a website that says we are spec, we do service for independent consultants with a white beard and a cat who live in Geneva, I'll think, wow. That, I don't know what they do yet, but I'm already hooked. So I call that, recognition. then there's perception where you have to clearly understand what the offer is. And I often think, clarity is better than cleverness and people wanna put you in a box or what category you're in, and things like that. worked for this company that had this automate coffee machine, this big coffee machine thing, people would say, why would we pay that price for, train station bad coffee? in their mind, the only automate coffee machine they knew was that. So they put them in that box and they we worked on talking about a coffee shop in a box or a virtual barista. Compare us to the coffee shop experience, not to the train station experience. you have people that understand, they're all excited, that's the perfect service for me. Then there's the doubt. So there's this third step, which is projection. gonna be like? I have to buy it and then install it and learn it, and then use the old system while I'm using the new system and the thing, and then, but then do I have the right list? And then I have, oh, I have information and then I, all this stuff. So I think I love your service and I'm gonna come back next week. and then I don't, so if you can help them, realize how simple it is, how, but then the, stakes that are there and then, close their eyes and pre-live what it's like, your promise of this better future. They're almost tasting it there's this extra step into, and that'll create the engagement that could be put off the doubt. So I feel that you get. A better qualified leads at the beginning because the right people recognize themselves and can, and are engaged, which means that the wrong people, people that aren't your ideal clients might be turned away. and not only, and then you bring them a few steps further in engagement because they're already feeling what it's like and be reassured and you've removed these obstacles and so that, so it creates a more fluid transition where you have Yeah, better leads and higher conversion. you can build that story that brings them through those steps.

Iqbal 22:01

Yeah. and, I think just the beginning part of what you just said there, I think what I find is, too many businesses go too generic in terms of, either the their, particular offering or that their customer. So what ends up happening, nobody resonates with that character that you, built, as you mentioned. so, somebody very specific in a particular geography, age group, whatever it is. I think that's where you've gotta get it right and it's difficult to do unless you've got a very clear service that you're offering. it's sometimes I'm finding that message in the beginning isn't clear, and if it's not clear in the beginning, then everything else then starts to fall apart, doesn't it, at that

Vinay 22:45

Yeah.

John 22:46

I think people, companies are scared to niche down because they're afraid to lose that, that one customer, could have that, But if we narrow it down, these, we could lose a few,

Vinay 23:01

Yeah,

John 23:01

they end up being lukewarm for everybody.

Vinay 23:04

I, yeah, I totally recognize that. So I think you end up becoming vanilla ice cream, the flavor for everybody. And, I recognize this. So when I first started to go freelancing consulting and stuff, I had quite a generic, and I probably still don't have quite a tight niched, offerings in some respects, but it's got tighter. But in the beginning, I remember, having a conversation with a coach, which was about, you need, really need to know who you're talking to. And the moment I decided to do that and start to narrow in. I got an inquiry from somebody outside of that target group and it just challenges you because you go, oh, I've niched, but hang on, I've got this customer who doesn't quite fit the profile I wanna work with, but they're from outside of that. and anyway, we didn't end up doing anything because, the circumstances were not right for them. But it's interesting that fear of what I niche down, you almost translate that is that narrows down the pool, which means there's less. But actually I think what I'm hearing John saying is that when you narrow that down, when you have a clarity about who you're talking to, your communication becomes supercharged and better. So you connect with the much better. Even things like the imagery you include in your website, in your advertising, people see themselves in that. there's something that I've often, often said, and I've, I talk about from the stage and with clients is that. The customer needs to see themselves in your story or into the story. They need to see themselves there. When they don't see themselves, the first question they ask themselves is this really for me? I think that's what John was talking about just there. And if the question is this for me? And there's not as resounding yes it is, they won't step forward. 'cause there'll be a hesitation. Like I was replacing a tap in the kitchen. I'm not a DIYer at all. So I was looking at all these videos. Yeah. Except guys, I was looking at all these videos about how to change this tap and people, you need this tool. You need that tool. You need to take this out. And ended up finding this tap with this really simple mechanism that you can, and immediately went, that's for me, that's for an idiot who doesn't know how to DIY. I can, I'm confident I can fit that and I did. And it's still not leaking, so I must have done something right. But I think even that, so things like that where I can see myself and go, that's for me, I've had that experience for sure. And I'm sure if you think you probably have as well.

Iqbal 25:26

Yeah, I think just on that, the reason why, it resonated why it worked for you is because somebody showed you how easy it is

Vinay 25:35

Yeah.

Iqbal 25:36

that. particular tap.

Vinay 25:39

yeah.

Iqbal 25:39

and that's the next bit of the apprehension, isn't it? I think John, you mentioned there, it's one thing telling a story about how good your service is, but how does that actually translate in your life and how do you actually transform to this new service and now that journey? I think, again, that's a separate component when it comes to the storytelling, is you gotta crack that. That's gotta, it's, gotta be, you've gotta remove any barriers, any friction or anything in order to, get the customer to buy in because they know how easy it is to, be able to transform to this new service. and, again, that I find that can be quite difficult because

Vinay 26:19

Yeah.

Iqbal 26:20

great product is great, but how do you, how does it, how do I actually consume this? Sometimes you just gotta spell it out in your storytelling, I feel.

John 26:30

feel that there, those are linked, Vinay said that, he recognized himself in the saying, okay, this is a thing for idiots or whatever. for, and then since you chose that niche, carries down and the obstacles that you'll raise, the fact that you make it simple, the whole thing, is coherent. I think, niche is pretty natural. so this company said, okay, these, there are things for plumbers. be different and let's make a version that's easier non DIY people otherwise, other times you feel that you can choose to niche, say I'm an accountant and I say, oh, hey guys, need accounting? Or you can say, I'm an accountant specialized in landscapers or something. And if you have enough landscapers out there, they're all gonna choose you because they feel, he knows our business. he's the one specialized for us. you can't niche down until you have the, your market is too small. But if you can, if people can feel. that, you've gone to special care for them, that can be really powerful.

Vinay 27:52

definitely. 'cause I think just that example, the tap is a tap, it looked like any other tap. But the thing that, that, that stood out was the ease of installations. Really. Going back to your previous point, I think where you said earlier on in the, in, in the opening part around really understand the problem you're trying to solve. The NGO example you gave of. it's about the, it's about the logistical problem of trucks. What they understood was we're not, solving the problem is you want to tap what you want is something that's really easy to install, that you don't have to get a plumber in to come and do that you can do in an hour at home and have the hassle of trying to find somebody else. And that was understanding. And then communicating that through their, channel, their branding, their packaging, all of that kind of then became, I, guess a contribution to that story that could further confirmed for me that this is easy and I'm gonna be able to do this. And that confidence to be able to tackle it.

Iqbal 28:44

Yeah. and I, think what's interesting about this story is, you, were the hero at the end of this story, and I think if you, as a brand and an organization, if you can make your customer the hero, like now you feel like you're not a plumber, but yet you've, now been able to solve this huge problem, without paying a plumber to come in and do that. So you are now the, hero of the story. And I think that's one of the things, again, also with storytelling is if you can make a customer the hero rather than a lot of brands make themselves like, oh, we're, we're the ones who are the hero in your story doesn't quite resonate. And how you achieve that, I guess that can be quite difficult and challenging. it's easier said than done, but John, what's your

John 29:27

I think one, one posture, is this idea that? you're the guide, you're, Yoda and there Luke Skywalker, and there's so many stories out there. the hero, sure and things, and there's this old wise guide that can, he could have solved the problem like that. But no, the story is about him helping this person become the hero and the, you, the company should have that posture of saying, if you wanna brag, don't brag about how great you are. Brag how good you are at making your customer successful. and just that mind shift and it makes, makes quite a difference.

Vinay 30:10

It does. I mean that, heroes, Joseph Campbell's hero Story framework, star Wars is the famous movie that's I guess made is example that most people use of a how it does it. And most Hollywood films follow a similar pattern, but when I. was, when I was at Egg, when we launched Egg in the nineties. That hero's journey was used as part of our internal storytelling to our people. So leaders were the guides and our heroes were our people who did the work. And so the role of the role of the leader was to guide, to help them to overcome doubt, believe in them, all of those kind of things, as well as the other things you do as a leader in an organization. But that was a, that was an internal application of using the hero's journey.

John 30:58

But I, think the storytelling, if you can tell your customer's story and so it's clear who you are, who you're, who you're helping, who you're servicing, what your, mission is, how you make their lives better and all that. And as a team, you can build that story together. It creates an alignment. And a purpose and a focus. I often find that there are two kind of companies. There's one that says we need a marketing story, and then they go through the process and think Ooh, wow, that was cool. 'cause it clarified our positioning and aligned our teams and others and others saying, we need a, we need to work together to, to, to make more focus and better positioning. And oh, cool, we got a marketing story out of it. there's the two halves of this process. And it's not just a, It's strategy hidden a, storytelling thing. companies are willing to pay for a marketing story thinking, Ooh, that'll increase conversion and stuff. they're not necessarily willing to, invest in, their internal alignment and, this focus, all that is so fuzzy. So it's a Trojan horse where you get them to work on their marketing. And actually the bigger side effect is this focus and purpose and clarity in internally. and I find that

Iqbal 32:25

that's a, that's, it's, a really good point because you, whilst you can tell a great story, when a customer interacts with your brand question is, can you replicate that story for every customer that interacts with you? Every, every stage of that journey? and I think that the execution part, it's quite interesting, isn't it? we talked about building a story, that's one aspect of this, but how do you get an organization to full fulfill on this promise, almost to the customer to say, look, this is what we are doing to change our customer's lives. This is what we can do to change your life. And then when they start interacting with you, how do you ensure all aspects of your business is, ready to be able to deliver on that? I think that's, I guess that's another challenge, isn't it? and it's just goes beyond just the marketing aspects of it. But again, this is where organizations do fail.

John 33:18

yeah, I think, think marketing is how, the door feels when you open the door of the store, how they, the, how they talk, how they answer the phone, and plus the colors on their website and all that. And Yeah. if you can this, by having this, my, my job often stops at the structure of the story. And then you can redo your website, redo your pitch deck, redo your calls, your, and create, campaigns or, po posts or whatever, but have this core story or stories because you can have then a story for a particular product line or a story for a particular company or something like that. but they have this foundation and then everything they do can this consistency. instead of saying one team is out doing tiktoks while the other one is building the website and the third one is doing the showroom, and they they don't feel the same. it creates that, foundation, which is which is really

Vinay 34:22

Yeah, and I think that what you touched on there about that in that. The story being consistent at every interaction is what I spent my life talking about and spent most of my work is focused on is, helping teams internally align behind that story so that when they're executing their part of the story, it's consistent with, what we're doing. I'm working with a brand at the moment that's got, is on a journey to convey this, new proposition they have. And they're telling the story from a marketing perspective, but if you call or you go on their website, it's, not completely lined up yet. It's still, there's a misalignment. It doesn't reference certain things. It sounds very different when you call them to, when you read about them and when you see their branding. So the, gap between the story that's told and the reality of what's, what the customer experience is the challenge and the smaller that gap is, the better you become and the stronger your brand is, I think, and the bigger that gap is. The weaker your brand is because your marketing is constantly having to work harder to keep convincing people while the reality in the backend is not so great. And so when people actually come into it, they don't get, they don't get the same magic that was conveyed in, the story that was told by the marketing team.

Iqbal 35:40

Yeah, I think having that core message or that, that core story that, that the, company, represents, got to be articulate across all aspects of the business, especially frontline teams when they're interacting with customers. they've got to fully kind almost believe that that's been created by that business and being able to deliver it. what, certainly what I'm, from a technological aspect, we're coming across a lot of customers now replacing human interactions with, ai, right? That's, AI is now becoming the front door for many brands. So it's making sure that your, AI model has the. Information around branding. What, problems you're solving for the customers, creating those guardrails, and, creating a personality for your, front door of your business that ha reflects exactly what we've just talked about here, and that's been quite challenging. What we are seeing with a lot of experiments right now is, um, your customers are engaging you, they don't really wanna speak to an AI unless your AI really understands, or it really is able to solve the problem based on the story that you are, telling them from a marketing standpoint. And I think, I don't think anybody's really solved this correctly today, but I think this is the other aspect of this now is, it's not, it's more than just enabling the humans within your organization, but making sure that technologically you are also, fulfilling on that promise.

John 37:14

Yeah, I, AI of course now is everywhere.

Iqbal 37:18

Yeah.

John 37:19

I've, worked with quite a number of, startups in the AI space, not too long ago the message was. This is amazing. we can do everything. This is crazy. you're gonna see all this, magic happening, and I think I see them evolving where it's becomes, the story has become, you all know of the great potential of AI doing crazy, that, you know will increase your speed and, productivity and quality and all this stuff. How about governance? How about privacy? How about security? How about, brand voice? How about this? How about this? And so you don't have to hype up the possibilities anymore. You have to address to say you're all overwhelmed with a million tools that promise, the moon. we're, starting from a foundation where you can, trust on all these issues and build something that, that is solid. and then, and then you'll get And that shift of where the, your customer's mind is in these tools, is important.

Vinay 38:27

Yeah, I, think I, think it's, an interesting space, the AI think, 'cause I, do think that hype cycle, is obviously this, it's being pushed. there's a narrative sold that, AI can do all these amazing things, but you still have to train it like you do a human. Like you. When you have humans in your business, they still have to understand your story, have the tools, have the knowledge to be able to do it. The AI needs the same thing. It needs to be trained in the story. So when it's executing the tasks, it's doing consistently with the story. That you've created about your org, about your customers and your organization that ha that's still the same thing today. A human, the number of contact centers you call and you end up speaking to somebody and that you can tell they're just presentee, they're there for the paycheck, they don't not invested in the brand. The way they deal with you is just transactional. There isn't a conveying in the story. And other times you'll caught an organization and you absolutely get someone who you talk to who really represents what that company's all about, Through their energy, through the way they speak to you, through the language they use, their attitude towards you. You can really feel the difference in the two. So I think the, problem I see in AI is a lot of the focus is on the transactional and productivity capability. It can do the things that we can do faster, better, at speed. But actually we still need to give it that training and, the understanding and the contextualization of what it's trying to do. What is it? What's the story it's operating within? Because if you would deploy that same but to Apple versus you deploy that same but to, I don't know, Ryanair, they'll have two different stories that they're working inside of. The technical capability might be exactly the same, but the story they're operating inside of will be different.

Iqbal 40:11

Yeah, I, and it's so much more important that you get that brand voice that, the story you're telling spot on, because AI is quite binary, right? it's not gonna, understand nuance and context sometimes the more you, the projects that we've been working on, we've uncovered that many organizations haven't worked this stuff out and because they haven't worked it out, it's, there's risk there in terms of how your customers will perceive this, that there is always that worry and concern there. So it's accelerating this process of getting that bit right.

Vinay 40:48

Sorry.

John 40:49

feel that, first of all. Stats show that a vast majority of AI projects fail right now.

Iqbal 40:56

Yeah.

John 40:57

Companies are jumping on the bandwagon or firing people and then they regret it and try to get 'em back, and they think it's gonna be easy, and then, either they're automating the wrong thing. There was this interesting saying where technology was gonna replace parts of your business, and if it's replacing the. stupid repetitive, stuff and frees up the humans to do the intelligence stuff that's really powerful. If it automates the intelligence stuff and leaves the human to do, like London taxi drivers, to learn, they probably still do 25,000 roads and, it was, a London taxi driver. that was really tough. And then Uber comes along GPS and takes away that intelligent part. anybody can drive the car. And so then it kills that whole, business. and so you can, also try to use ai, I love an AI bot when it, it gets a, there's a practical question with a practical solution really quick. And then once yours, they know you have to. Once your situation isn't quite that simple, switch to a human that can then get in, get involved and to manage that, is tricky and, but can make enormous difference.

Vinay 42:20

Yeah. I think the, the phrase that we're using now, companies are still working out. What they're working at is they're working at the deployment of the technology, but actually the thing that they've never worked at is a story in the first place. Because if the story was well structured and told or they new, the deployment of the AI and the technology becomes easier 'cause you're building it on the same story. Foundational principles saying, this is who we are, this is who we talk to, this is our language, this is the way that we operate. All of that stuff is done, but the fact that they've not that a lot of organizations haven't done that work without the ai. And so therefore, that's why you get the variability of service at different points of the journey. When you speak to different teams or outsource parts of the organization or their stakeholders aren't quite brought in, that's where the joins fall apart. And that's where you have those friction points where people, don't feel the story is consistent, don't feel the journey is consistent, and start to fall out of love with a brand that they very much might have enjoyed at the very beginning when they first saw themselves and thought, oh, this is gonna be great. how many times has that been? You've seen something, oh, this is gonna be great. You start engaging with them and then you're like, I'm really regretting this now. I don't understand why. I don't understand why I did this. It's not quite what it was cracked up to be. and so I think, that work is not separate from the ai. I think it's part of the same construct of how do you tell the story, or how do you build a story? And I just wanted to bring us back to John, sorry. 'cause we skipped about a little bit the, fundamental difference between storytelling and story building and the building blocks. obviously I don't wanna give away all of your trade secrets, but what are one or two things that you think are common things people miss when they think about how do I build this story?

John 44:05

a lot of it comes back to the fact that they talk about themselves. what do companies do all day long? They're trying, they, they serve their customers. They're trying to get better. They can check the quality, they add new features. They wonder what they're gonna do next. They're, it's us, And so you're out there and you say, Hey, we do this great thing and we do this, and we do this, and we do this. if you can just step back, your customer's standpoint and say, what are, they looking for? I saw this ad in the States where this plumber, I think of saying, Hey, we're a great plumber, they said, we come on time. And in the, it seems like in the states, these kind of contractors either don't show up or show up late. You have to take a full day off from work just to, to have your drippy faucet fixed. And so they really recognize, I'm not worried and you're a plumber. I trust you. So what I'm worried about is you're coming on time. And that shift also shows it's not just coming on time, it's, they're concerned about our time is valuable. What, our needs, they, think about, it shows a whole perspective that creates trust, because you're out of your own head and you're, you're thinking about your, customer. I think one trap that companies fall into is personas. we work with, from 18 to 35 or whatever kind of thing. And that box, that's not how people see themselves. and if you can start with. personas, but start with their aspirations. Start with their challenges and all these things, and then you realize, actually what we're doing, fits also these, demographic traits. So the, the pictures on the website, fit what you think you're, all that. But, sometimes, the old lady can have the same aspiration and challenge as the young boy, and that's fine. And you don't have to put them in those pre-constructed boxes. building a picture of your customer where they sort of recognise themselves, and it's a check in the box, oh, but we did this persona work so we, know our customers, but, you're actually making these, stereotypical pictures of them where they won't recognize themselves.

Vinay 46:31

Yeah. Yeah, I think that recognition, I think when you, look at all great, go back to movies, if you look at all great movies, I think one of the reasons things movies like Star Wars was so brilliant was that we all recognized ourselves in some of those characters, some of the traits those characters had, the struggles we went through. the, doubt that we have, like subconsciously we, we, whenever we do anything in life, we see those things. So we resonate with those characters and the stories that are told, I think at a really deep level, and to your point earlier on, that's how civilization, that's how humans, that's what we are born. Our DNA is around storytelling. That's how we communicate and connect with one another. and when there's bad storytelling. You don't connect. It's the, your, your point about companies just talk about themselves. They do, we often talk about this is who we are, this is what we do, this is the credentials. there's a great equation that I use called, the Trust Equation by David Meister, and he talks about, trust is credibility plus, reliability plus intimacy over self orientation. And the credibility and the reliability is where most organizations focused. Here are the list of all of the certifications and things that I have that tell you that I can do what I do, and then they major on, we're gonna deliver it for you, which is fine, and that will get you so far the intimacy is where the customer looks and thinks to themselves, or the person looks and thinks to themselves, they care about me, they understand me, they know me. I get a feeling that this, they, definitely see the world from my perspective. And then the self-orientation is the degree to which I feel you're in this just for yourself. You in this for me as well. And those two elements are where organizations do not focus enough attention or don't convey that they focus enough attention through the way that they execute their various interaction points. and I think that a lot that comes from the story building both internally so that when I onboard in an organization, I understand not just the mission, the values and the, typical induction that you get, but actually there's a deep story that I'm involved in here. So as I go about my work that's coming through in the things I do, and then that reflects on the outside, and I, you see so many companies have shrunk that induction period for people coming on board in their organization. It's a one day corporate induction, or it's a two day, or, in contact centers. I will have seen it. we, went from the days of people having a, an onboarding period of six weeks, two weeks training, three week green room, and then out on the floor too. You, you come for your interview, you do two days training, and then you sat in a contact center starting to take calls and you've had none of the, immersion in the story.

Iqbal 49:12

you, don't feel part of it, do you? Because you are, you're, you are, you're gonna learn over time, but actually that experience initially is gonna be pretty poor for the customer because you are, you're just not. familiar with it. I think what we're finding now is the onboarding is sped up even more, because there's the assumption that AI is there supporting you every step of the way, right? That's what agents get. Now they've got the AI telling them, okay, customer said this. Here's some information. But they, again, no nuance, no context. It's. It's so binary. And then that, of course does reflect, but I think it's just a, sign of times at the moment, right? Everything is in real time. There's no, there's no time given to, to try and help, people get enabled in the right way. I think that, lose some of this, gold, because we're not spending enough time getting this bit right. I think. so yeah, it's really interesting because the, reality is very different to what we're discussing here. I think this is all great. when I am sat with organizations like I, I've had a marketing, get in touch, with me about extracting information from our data. our conversations we're having with our customers to uncover the problems that we're solving for our customers. we do surveys and we get an in, we have a view on how we're helping customers with our product and services, but we actually wanna try and uncover some insight from the data to see actually is there something there that we can use, to then market to our back, to our customers to say, these are all of the things that we're doing for our customers. And actually we're hearing it from the, from that insight. And, I think this is where you can start to use it to your advantages, and maybe adapt that story based on actually what's happening in real time, with, some of the insights that, are now available to, to, to many organizations.

John 51:13

I like this, the idea of this intimacy, and I find that, those are the ones that, stick to mind. I can, my MBA in Pittsburgh, Carnegie Mellon, and I, the first day I got there, I put my credit on my card into the ATM, get some cash and put the wrong code, and my card was blocked. And I was there for three weeks and I thought, damn, I walked away. I probably did five steps. My phone rang Zurich, you blocked your card. How can we help? And that was 20 years ago and I still tell the story and it, so then of course you think two minutes and it's fraud control. there's a card blocked in Pittsburgh for the guy that lives in Geneva, Switzerland. instead of saying, this is the card police, are you really John Elbing? They said, they turned it into this, sentence. And I thought that was,

Vinay 52:08

Yeah.

John 52:09

But really powerful.

Vinay 52:10

Yeah, And, I think those are the moments that stick, we, talk a lot about, I talk a lot about every moment matters and these, small moments, trust is built in small moments of a period of time. Each of those interactions either confirms that you're still in the story and you still believe and you still trust, versus something's happened and I'm gonna pull away. But those small moments matter, like that example that you gave. Why is it, do you think that we, that those small interactions stay with people for so long? What's the, what's behind it?

John 52:46

it probably comes down, down to this idea that you're being taken into account. There's another idea, example that I found really powerful in a bank wealth management where they train the wealth managers to draw. With a pen on paper, the graphs and the things. all the other banks create these beautiful things on a screen and say, look at how wonderful this is, and know what they say. But you sit down next to the person and say, oh, so if you do this, and they, and this kind of intimate moment of drawing the thing with your customer that you can go at the right speed, you, they understand, they feel that you're, they're doing you, that you're, they're doing a special thing for you and all that. I'm sure people come out of that, with better understanding, feel that they were heard, where at the end it's, delivering the same information, in a way there's that kind of in intimacy that, and then sticks with you. Yeah.

Vinay 53:51

Yeah. Yeah. I, Yeah. there's, there's a huge amount of psychology behind it. I think I was doing something this morning about, the impact of dopamine and the fact that, habit forming starts with a dopamine hit when you actually do the thing and you get a good feeling from it. But then when that happens consistently over time, just the anticipation. Of doing the thing creates a similar dopamine hit. So if you've worked with a brand and your initial interaction might be, it was really great, the second One. third One whatever. But then you build a relationship over time. Just the anticipation of going, oh, I'm gonna go to this my favorite store, or I'm gonna go to the place that I really like. Just the anticipation gives you that, that feel good feeling that, that is locked in your memory.

John 54:32

One. One word we haven't really used yet is emotion. that's powerful. These stories contain emotion. So when you talk about the person's problem, it's not just the problem, it's the fact that they're frustrated

Vinay 54:46

yeah.

John 54:47

worried. it's not just that the problem will be solved, but they will be relieved or they will be proud of the result. Or, and the, you get into the story, it's the, the studies have shown that we make our take, make our decisions. in French, you, you take a decision, but in English you make a decision. And somehow I'm bilingual and somehow every time I, stumble on that, the emotion takes over and then we invent a rational story to justify our, choice. and that, yeah, that is really important.

Vinay 55:27

Yeah. Yeah. My wife has worked that out. That's what I do, rationalize it after the event. Every time I buy something, she's figured that out.

John 55:36

But

Vinay 55:36

Yeah.

John 55:36

that, but they say that, we actually unconsciously make decisions and that our brain, we think we, you know that in an MRI, they actually see that the decision was made before that you actually in your brain realize, gone through the process.

Vinay 55:54

Yeah.

John 55:54

and so there is sportscaster almost to saying, okay, John is thinking this, and we tried that and things, and this is the decision John took. And, but actually, there's a lot of unconscious decision making behind it.

Vinay 56:06

Yeah, And I think a lot of it, start phrasing that gut instinct. 'cause I think there's also a study that shows that the, nerve endings within your, gut are very similar to that within your brain. So that gut instinct that you have, that compuls you to go I'm gonna take this decision, is often the right decision. And then your brain, then backwards engineers, the, reasoning to confirm the decision that you've made. But in that moment, often. We operate on gut instinct, on emotion that tells us that this is safe. I feel good about this, I'm gonna do it. And then you, tend to do it. That's, how your decision making works.

John 56:45

Yeah, so

Vinay 56:46

Yeah,

John 56:46

on a diet, but I think I don't wanna reduce my gut, which would reduce my decision making

Iqbal 56:52

That's a good excuse. That's.

Vinay 56:54

I like that. I'm gonna use that. That's really good. That's the reason I eat so much. 'cause I need to rely on my decision making.

John 57:00

exactly.

Vinay 57:01

John, we are coming towards the end of our time together, but I just, I want to give you the opportunity, to put out if there were founders organizations, people in organizations who are tasked with telling stories, what are two or three tips that you could give to them? I know we've talked about already about know your audience and know who you're talking to, but are there one or two of the things that you could leave people with that would help them? To build a more compelling story or at least build the right parts of the story.

John 57:34

So at some point you said, you, I, you didn't want me to give away all my tips and tricks, but, so I, I did write the book where I give away all my tips and

Vinay 57:44

Okay.

John 57:44

if you want to, if you go for story building, Your brand from their standpoint. that's the subtitle. so you can get all the tips and tricks, and even if you go to the website standpoint, ch, you can go to my contact form and say, you're coming from the, podcast. And I'll give you a free hour of looking at your story, your brand, and seeing if I can help.

Vinay 58:09

Oh, amazing. That's a great offer. Thank you.

John 58:12

I just added a tagline generator where actually you have to talk about your customer, talk about your thing, and it has six different formats and then refines them. And you choose them and you come out and, not only you get a tagline, but again. process of going through all that actually is interesting because it clarifies you're doing. So that was my first vibe coding, ai Claude thing, that I did just to understand what's going on. And so that was an amazing thing. But, so I think the first thing is this idea of flipping the script, to stop talking about yourself. Say it's okay, you're a customer. Who are they? What is their, what are their aspiration, their challenge, why, and how do you fit in their story? And just thinking about it that way changes your perspective and, instead of saying, how can we deliver our great service is how can we make our customer, how can we deliver this positive future that we're promising? And this exercise of saying that forces you to say of everything you're doing, what is the core thing that really makes the difference? Because we, and That's. so much easier to say than to do. I struggle with my own, thing. I said, but I also do this and I'm great at this. And Okay. it's hey, you're in this situation. I guess one last thing is trigger moments. get a call by like an insurance company saying, are you happy with your insurance? And I think, I don't know, I don't care and I hang up. But if they called me and said, Hey, we you just bought a house and we are sure you have this insurance, but here's something interesting. I would stay on the line. Or you're starting a business, we have something interesting to say. If you can find those moments where your customer. Is prime to be interested. As a young father, you're worried about what you feed your, baby. young fathers will say, I wasn't yet, but now I am. tell me more. but if you just said, if we do baby food, that won't be engaging. And

Vinay 1:00:28

Yeah.

John 1:00:29

and often there are those moments that you can leverage that, that make a difference.

Vinay 1:00:34

Yeah, definitely. They're great tips. listen, John, that's been really great to talk to you today. Thank you for all your insights and for sharing the world of storytelling. I'm sure people listening to this will get a whole load of value. We'll put the links to your website, in the description when we post this on our, YouTube channel. And, any other information that you wanna give us, we can, pop it into the description. But yeah. Igbo, anything that you wanna add in.

Iqbal 1:01:02

No, I think, just to wrap up, John, really appreciate your time and the insight. I'm definitely gonna try your, website out for, my own business just to see what it comes up with. So that's really interesting. And, I think that the trigger moments that you mentioned at the end are just, I think the spot on because actually that's, how you can really get, it's, almost a call to action at that point because you are, you're almost touching a point that really resonates with those, trigger points. yeah. thank you. Appreciate your time today and, look forward to, catching up again soon. Thank

John 1:01:38

Okay. thank you. very much. This has been a lot of fun and I'll, yeah, I to.

Vinay 1:01:46

Thank you.