You’ve Got Company Culture All Wrong

Culture is often treated like something soft. Something hard to define. Something businesses assume will look after itself.

In this episode, Sarah Dena explains why that thinking creates problems long before leaders notice them. Together with Vinay Parmar and Iqbal Javaid, this conversation explores how culture forms whether you design it or not, why employee emotion drives behaviour, and why what happens inside a business is always visible outside it.

The discussion moves through business acquisition, founder identity, scaling pressure, leadership without title, psychological safety, brave conversations, inclusion, remote working, emotional data, and trust. Sarah shares why pizza Fridays never solve deeper issues, why values often fail when they are forgotten in daily behaviour, and why loyalty is built through consistency rather than slogans.

This episode is especially useful for leaders building teams, founders growing through change, and anyone trying to understand why customer experience and employee experience can never be separated.

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Transcript

Vinay 0:08

Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Breaking the Blueprint podcast, with me Vinay Parmar and my co host Iqbal Javaid. How are you doing?

Iqbal 0:16

Yeah, very well, thank you. Yeah, it feels like it's been a while since we've last met. the reason why I know there's been a while is because the football team that we support has, has their, fortunes have changed massively since the last time we met, right? Where we were pretty depressed the last time we

Vinay 0:35

we were. And if everything goes according to plan today, there's somebody very famous who's going to get a hair cut

Iqbal 0:39

That's true.

Vinay 0:40

after the game. I don't know if you've seen this guy who's,

Iqbal 0:44

Frank

Vinay 0:44

United Strand, who stopped cutting his hair and said he'd only cut his hair when Manchester United won five games in When Manchester United won four games. Today, there is a game, and if we win the fifth game, he will cut his hair. His hair is

Iqbal 1:00

yeah it's

Vinay 1:01

out there, it's been a long time. so. Hopefully,

Iqbal 1:05

yeah.

Vinay 1:06

you'll get a

Iqbal 1:06

haircut, him, so, you know, whatever he's doing, Maybe we need to do something like that.

Vinay 1:11

we should just, yeah, maybe we should stop cutting our hair until we get a million subscribers or

Iqbal 1:15

Beard maybe.

Vinay 1:16

yeah,

Iqbal 1:16

yeah we do a beard thing, maybe change it up a bit.

Vinay 1:18

I'll end up looking like Gandalf or something like that, I reckon, Yeah. Yeah. So what have you been up to in that time, you've been busy working on projects. What's,

Iqbal 1:27

yeah, it's been, like, you know, you, have that kind of January month of just trying to recover from the Christmas period, trying to get back into work. But now we're in February, you know, things are, you know, projects are kicking off. there's a lot of activity happening, I think the, you know, the economy seems to, be, there's a lot, a lot happening politically. But actually I'm coming across organisations really wanting to kind of move forward this year, there's a lot happening around AI, I think, you know, there's been a lot of noise in that space, but now we're starting to see a bit of a shift go from experimentation to, Actual projects, that deliver real value. and and that's been really interesting to have those types of conversations.

Vinay 2:11

Cool. Good, good, good, good, good. Well, look, we've got a really good episode lined up today, and we're going to be talking about a topic that frequently crosses into my work. Well, it's central to the work that I do, to the work that you do. It's probably central to the work that everybody does, knowing it or not knowing it, it's part of the whole thing. so look, I, I was recently speaking at a conference, in Cardiff, and the room was, All back office people. It's not front line customer service people or anyone involved in delivering customer service. So these were engineers, back office planning, procurement, all these kind of people and trying to connect them to why should we care about customer experience? Because let's be honest, sometimes when people say customer experience, it can translate into be nice and smile more. and that's not what it's about. We know that. And that's what the whole point of this show is, to try and give people, lift the conversation, raise the category, as Rory Sutherland would say, and get people talking about CX and customer experience in a way that they wouldn't normally. And anyway, one of the key messages in that room was, customer experience really is what it likes, what it feels like to be on the receiving end. of how an organisation works. It starts on the inside, and, and, you know, the key thing about that is it's culture, you know, the word that we often, talk about, another C word, and so today's episode's all about that and that's why we have our Brilliant guest here today, Sarah. Sarah Dena, who I met on another podcast, a radio show, we were, we were both guests on a radio show talking about culture, and it's one of those conversations, Sarah, I hope it feels like it. the same way to you, cause this is, otherwise, this is going to be a real disaster when I say this. You might go, it didn't feel that way to it was one of those great conversations where you walk away and you go, there's so much that we have in common in terms of our world view, and some of the ideas that we share, but I was buzzing after that conversation, so it was only natural that I'd reach out and say, why don't you come on here and have a chat with us

Sarah 4:15

well it didn't feel like that to me.

Vinay 4:19

mean I've been married 25 years, I should be used to that kind of phrase now.

Sarah 4:23

No, it absolutely was. Yeah, it was. and I think we were, we were almost at the point of finishing, finishing each other's sentences for a while and I felt for, I felt for the radio host at times

Vinay 4:35

Yeah, poor Dan.

Sarah 4:36

I could see he was trying to kind of get, you know, get questions in to, to stop us talking. So yeah, I'm absolutely delighted to be here with you both and talk about, I mean. I love the topic culture so much. I named my company with it front and center. So yeah I'm delighted to be here and looking forward to what this conversation might uncover.

Vinay 4:56

dive into some of the questions we've got, and getting into that really juicy topic, give us a bit of a, a little bit of a history, your background, where you come from, how the company that you now run was formed, and what's the work that you're really interested in doing?

Sarah 5:11

Yeah, brilliant. So, I am an HR professional. I fell into what was called back in the late 90s, the personnel department. I fell into that through, a lecturer of mine actually kind of sitting down in the good old days where kids had careers advice and guidance. and he was like, what do you want to do? And I said, well, I know what I don't want to do. I don't want to do this, I don't want to do this, I don't want to do this. I definitely don't want to do that. And he said, well, have you thought about, have you thought about, personnel as a profession? you're really good with people, which I now hate that phrase, I'm a people person. but you know, he, he made the, made the link between me and how I, how I showed up, how I connected with people, my curiosity around human behaviour and, what made people tick and how to get the best out of people. and so that really set me up with not through necessarily planning or choice or intention, but more, I don't want to do these things and this sounds like it might be a fit for me. So let's give it a go. so I have spent, I hate saying this, almost 25 years, in various companies, industries, but always in their HR department. fast forward through, time at IBM through acquisition. Time in professional services. So, legal firms and even a stint in the charity sector, which was amazing. I found myself being, well, my role was made redundant, but I stop and I say that with intention because at the time it felt like I was redundant. and that was during COVID. So the world was That's what it was. We all remember that time, I'm sure. and I reached out to a learning and development company that I had bought into the law firm that I was working at and kind of said, I'm not going to be around much longer, but the programmes will keep running because it was online delivery. but I'd really like to do some work with you'cause I love what you're about. I love, I've loved working with you. I love what you're doing. so if you've got some contracts, I'd be interested to explore. Six years on, well, no, four years on. and I bought the company. I loved it that much. Well, you say wonderful.

Vinay 7:40

Yeah.

Sarah 7:41

buying someone else's baby isn't necessarily what you think it's going to be. Yeah. It was a very different experience, and, and I, you know. I'll be very honest, as I always am, I quickly fell out of love with it and I realised that what I actually, what I actually loved the experience that I had, the connection I made was with the people in the business. And then when I bought it, they all went, cause they all had other jobs to go and do. So I then had to go through this. process. all I can call it is a grieving process. But I've bought this business and I'm supposed to be excited. And I'm supposed to be doing all of these things and I'm grieving the loss of these people, so yeah. A very, very weird time. So, as is typical of me, something weird's going on, I know what I'll do. I'll start a business that I actually love. So the Culturevators was born. I still run new Wave learning. and we do some, I'm integrating the businesses more now, to align with what I love, and the impact that, the impact that we're able to make as a result of that. but the Culturevators was born and the Culturevators exists today primarily to help ambitious scaling founders. When they get to that point in their business where they've employed their mates, they've moved away from the kitchen or dining room table, and they're probably creating a space for themselves, like a physical space. They are growing, but they're not at the point of, oh, we're growing to sell. we're just growing because this is, we're doing good stuff and our clients are demanding more and this is really exciting. But they get to the point where they've recruited their mates and their mates have probably left now anyway.'cause they realise that mates don't mix in business and they've started to hire in some more professional people and all of a sudden they go, ah, there's some growing pains that come. When you start bringing people into your organisation and you start to realise that as a founder, or maybe you don't realise it at this point, this is, this is what the Culturevators exists to do. It's to kind of shine a light on that problem. On that space that feels a bit uncomfortable and that people don't really want to go into, which is now that you're growing, you're more than a founder. You are a leader, and you may not see yourself as a leader. You may not even want to be a leader because you know, those of us who have founded businesses, we often do that, not so much in my case, but often times, founders will be jumping out of the corporate leadership space because they want to solve a problem faster, or they believe they can do it better, or they want to just make more money for themselves instead of solving the problem for someone else. So they're not thinking, oh, I want to lead a team of people. So they get to that point and all of a sudden it's like, oh, these people are causing me a lot of headaches. This is hard but work anyway. forget all of the people problems on it. I don't think I want to do this. And they sort of retract a little bit and that. Affects directly the culture of the organisation. So I see there being a direct intrinsic straight, you know, like you get the biggest Sharpie, you can find me and draw that line between the success of your scaling business will be determined on how seriously you deal with your leadership and the culture that, that leadership is not only creating but tolerating.

Iqbal 11:22

That's really interesting. my background, I've mentioned this before, I've worked for Zoom, and they went through a massive change in terms of, we know, what happened during COVID. but I joined them just at the kind of. back end of COVID time, So they were just, they were in a, in a hiring frenzy. They started out with a thousand people and they quickly jumped from a thousand to eight thousand, nine thousand, within a matter of twelve to eighteen months. so you can imagine the impact that had on on the kind of culture, the, the CEO was all about customer happiness and That, that was basically what represented culture for Zoom. It was that simple. they were delivering happiness to their customers, but the employees didn't know what that meant for them. Like, ok, we're trying, all we're doing is trying to keep our customers happy, but what about, what's, what, does it mean for us? Like, You know, we get, that's, that's the, that's the North Star we're working towards, But coming in as a leader as well was tough because I was trying to navigate what, what the culture means. I was having to almost create a culture for my team. Which wasn't a fair representation of perhaps what the CEO of the business wanted, but yeah. that certainly kind of resonates.

Sarah 12:32

So, I'm so glad we started with the word happy. with the word happy, so glad. what is happiness? What is happiness?

Vinay 12:44

It's the eternal question.

Sarah 12:45

Right?

Vinay 12:46

has a different version of it, Yeah.

Sarah 12:47

There you go. Everybody has a different definition. What makes you feel happy? Will be different from what makes me and what makes you, now, there may be themes, there may be similarities, you know, you start to boil it down. you know, you, you might settle on one what it is. But let's be honest, you know, if we put a search into Amazon right now, there'd be thousands of books about. design design a life of happiness or, you know, I mean, people can write that much about it because there's no one answer. So I'm very clear when I talk about this that I actually think, yes, customers, you want to delight your customers because you can see that by delighting a customer, you are putting yourself in a position of them becoming loyal to you, coming back and buying more from you, and then telling their friends who will then go on to buy from you. right? So that makes sense. I think from an internal perspective, we need to perhaps challenge making people happy and think more about what makes a healthy culture. Because for me, there needs to be a tension held in culture. And the reason I've landed on that belief and position is because probably for the past, maybe past decade, forgive me, time blurs. so, I don't know don't know exactly when I first, came to be aware of it, but have you heard of the term psychological safety?

Vinay 14:25

Yes.

Sarah 14:26

Yeah. Yeah? So that became Buzzwords in the hr, you know, in the HR space probably long before that. But that's where my awareness of it came. And, and I was all about that. I jumped on it like everybody else did. And I was like, yes, we need to create safe spaces. And, you know, it's really important. What I've come to realise is that that tension safe spaces run the risk of becoming nice spaces. So things feel nice. Things feel good. People are hashtag work family. We need to create, we need to hold some tension so that when I have something to contribute, that may put that hashtag work, family, nice, familial, safe space at risk. Because it might go against the norm. It might challenge a senior person's perspective. It might call out something. I have to feel you. more than safe to say that. I actually have to feel brave.

Vinay 15:30

Hmm.

Sarah 15:31

Does that make

Vinay 15:32

Yeah, it makes total sense.

Sarah 15:33

I have to feel brave, and that is a different condition. What makes you feel brave? Is a different set of conditions from what makes you feel

Vinay 15:42

Yeah. And your point around, Where you started with happiness, and what does that mean to people, you know, there are countless books and people that talk about it, and they say, you know, to be happy you have to get up at 5am, drink a kale smoothie, you know, journal for 25 minutes. do yo, like, we constantly look outside of ourselves to do things in order to make us feel happy, and happiness is an internal feeling, it's generated from what we are on the inside. And similarly, in organisations, you see some of those. Classic, cliche things like, Pizza Friday, office beers,

Sarah 16:20

bean bags,

Vinay 16:21

bean bags and, and you, and the culture is almost like, we'll put some soft furnishings in, we'll paint the wall bright colours, foosball table in there, you know, in the days of dot com, in the days of the dot com boom, and we'll put a pool table in, and that that will do the culture, that will make it a, a nice, you Place to work. But I think like you, Sarah, and, and I've had the personal experience of this, those, the best cultures are where you do have the tension. So it is a, it feels like a great place to work, because you're clear on what you're there to do. You've got, you have the feeling of knowing that you are in an environment where you can put your head above the parapet. and be brave, but it's not free of consequence. So you understand there's, there's that dynamic as well. and that's where that's the environment that leaders create which is, yes you might have some of those trinkets and bits on the outside but really it's more about how do we create this environment where people feel that they can step forward and be brave, not necessarily, that doesn't necessarily mean they're happy. It means they've got to a point where they feel like they've got a contribution to make. something to say that's, that's linked to the outcome that we're all trying to do, that's critical to that outcome. They can either see something that's taking us away from or they've got an idea to take us closer to, and they feel brave enough to be able to say, here's what I think.

Sarah 17:50

Yes Yeah. And I think from a leadership perspective, so I, I often, I often think about valued and values versus vulnerability. So for me to feel valued in terms of I'm going to, I'm going to put this forward, I'm going to say this, I'm going to contribute this, that may create an environment where that, for the leader, that creates some feeling of vulnerability. And the leader has to be able to feel that for their team members or their stakeholders or whoever, you know, whoever it is they are engaging with, for them to be able to feel that that's, they can, it's safe for them to do that. and, and in the work I do with New Wave Learning, that's really what. I've integrated kind of my, my work around emotional intelligence and emotional data heavily into the work that new wave learning do from manager and development perspective, because I think it's the hardest, it is the hardest thing for a leader to do, for a leader to, you know, You know, you sort of, you alluded, it alluded to it in the intro where you were talking about vulnerability and how they've, sorry, when we were talking before.

Vinay 19:04

Yeah.

Sarah 19:05

about, you know, those people that you connect with as leaders, they show vulnerability. It's really hard because I'm paid more than these people I've got. Sometimes I've got more experience in these people. I have the title of, and therefore I should know this. Control it, have an opinion of it. but the reality is, and I, you know, speak from my own experience, my, the two greatest leaders I ever followed, and I choose that word, I followed one of them back from a country, you know, to work in a company that I said I'd never work for because his leadership was all around vulnerability and compassion. He was brave enough to say, I don't know this. I know how to lead us through it, but I need you to bring me this. I need you to bring me this and I absolutely need you to bring me this. And he created the conditions around him for us to be able to do that.

Vinay 20:02

Yeah.

Sarah 20:03

So for people to feel valued and to do what they need to do to get to that point of feeling valuable through their contributions, I think the leader also has to go on a journey of accepting vulnerability and the discomfort and that tension I was talking about that can often exist. When, when vulnerability is at play.

Vinay 20:25

play. And, it's interesting cause leadership, like I've I've come to my belief, my understanding around leadership my understanding around leadership that it's not about position and title. It's about how you show up and you don't have to be at the top of the organisation to lead. you might have leadership authority. To be able to sign things off and get things done. but actually some of our most effective leaders are people within the organisation who, by their very nature and their behaviour, are vulnerable, brave, connectors, open, and bring people together around a certain idea or problem. They have leader in their title, they're just, they're showing up in that kind of way. and so like, again, I, you know, I, I was lucky enough to be part of an organisation where I saw that first hand and the amount of work that was done to prepare people, not by position, but By the work they do, to be able to lead In the right moment it wasn't right, you're head of department so you'll always lead, it was, we are teaching people How to lead, how to be leaders. and that was a huge investment in what we did that, that kind of then became, I guess, the topic that we'll kind of lean into now, the word that we know as culture This thing that people talk about, you know, we often see those posters, don't we? Culture eats strategy for breakfast and these phrases that people say and use. and, you know, much like my frustrations as a customer experience, you could ask 10 people what it is and you'll get 10 different answers. So from your perspective. When you talk about culture, what are the interesting things you hear people say, what are the most common things that people say about culture?

Sarah 22:17

So my observations over the last 12 months have been, people talk a lot about culture, but I'm not sure everybody has figured out what it actually means. And I think given that it is such a, it's an intangible

Iqbal 22:40

it's

Sarah 22:42

an omnipresent intangible. There's not ROI

Iqbal 22:46

or No! that's the problem, isn't it?

Sarah 22:48

Well, the thing is, yeah. So the thing is there is, It's, it's, and that's the point, like even when we were talking before, you were talking about the bricks and the mortar, and I think you described the mortar. And I kind of, I felt myself go in my chair and I was like, oh God, no. he didn't just say that, did he he

Vinay 23:07

Yeah.

Sarah 23:08

But that is, you know, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about, We, Culture is everywhere. And you said it brilliantly earlier when you talked about, you know, you were creating a subculture within a culture because you needed something around

Iqbal 23:21

Well, people needed it.

Sarah 23:22

Absolutely.

Iqbal 23:23

I could feel it, I could sense it. They had no idea what, what, what, the culture of the business meant. We're working on it. arses off here to make our customers happy. But at what cost

Sarah 23:34

to us. our people. So there's your, there's the, those are the, those are the moments that you're measuring, right? Like those are the things that become, you could turn those into, into ROI. So I, I find it interesting that, again, it's become a word and more and more people are talking about it, but I'm not sure I'm not sure we've really got a handle on it. Although I feel very, I I have a lot of conviction about how I talk about culture because. For me, and we've, we've, referenced it several times, culture has to start to be explored as an emotional experience. we have to recognise it as something that is felt As opposed to what, and I, you know, I hold my hands up to the HR gods and I say, I take accountability for the fact that I spent a lot of my career causing this problem. So what happens typically is, and this is where the inside out thing comes, that we've, sort of been exploring in our conversations recently, a company will spend a lot of money and you've probably got stats and data on how much people spend on this coming up with their brand values.

Vinay 24:53

So

Sarah 24:54

the, shop window, how we show up to our customer. It's going to be all over our website, it's going to be all over our socials, our merch, our brand, you know, our exhibition things, you know, everything that people see about us. it's a Limitless cheque, like go, go spend money, make us look how our customer wants us to look, right? and then so they do their brand values, they spend a lot of money on that. And then they come back into the business. They are normally a marketing department or someone, and I'm sorry if anyone's listening going, oh, she's trivialising what I do. I'm just being playful right now to, you know, to sort of illustrate my point. so but so they come back in and they go, oh, right, these are our brand values, so they must now be our company values. These are the things we value. So they put them on attractive posters, they stick them up on the wall. I remember being, when I was commuting, to bath and back being on the train and people getting on the train in the morning with their lanyards, with the values printed in them. Just to remind you, there's the company values, if anyone ever asks. has asked. so we have these, we have these values, and we put them on the website. We talk about them in company. You know, we do a big launch of the company values, and then somebody in HR like me gets tasked with, ok, so we've got these company values. This is what, this is what we say that we believe in. We need to convert these into a competency framework or a behaviour matrix, because we want to measure it. We want to control it. We want to show people you're only getting this performance rating or this salary rise or this bonus because you have done these things quite well, these things really well, but these things not very well. So we box it up, compartmentalise it, and then we and we stop there. We stop at that behaviour framework piece because we're comfortable with it. We can control it. We know, you know, we can communicate it, we can measure it. Behaviour is a result of someone feeling something. And you can fake that and you can mask it and you can do that for so long. But at what cost? So I am. Yeah, I suppose I, I call myself, well, I don't call myself, but in my mind, I'm, I'm, I want to get in and disrupt that traditional command and control, values driven approach to culture being defined as a set of behaviours, and kind of pull the next layer off and say, we started, that whole thing that I've just talked through, started with a very simple question, which was, how do we want our customers to feel about us so that they become loyal to us and they tell their friends about us? Why would we not do the same inside? Why would we not say if we want our customers to feel X, how do the people delivering. The bit that gets to the customer, how do they need to feel? And we start to see our culture as a series or a set of emotional conditions that we seek to create and uphold and contribute to. You know, this is not about, let's just make everybody feel good. Absolutely not. It's the, conditions that we need to create so that people feel what they need to feel to deliver the experience that we want our clients to have.

Iqbal 28:46

So is that a case of creating an environment that allows your people to feel what they're feeling so that, going back to the vulnerability, they're vulnerable enough to feel what they're truly feeling, rather than having to mask it I'm just thinking, how do you, where do you begin, I guess with culture? That's, the, that's the tricky thing for me. and and I get everybody's on a different journey. You know, they're in a different situation. I also feel like, you know, from the outset, there's this culture that's been set by the business. but businesses go through ups and downs. And during the downs is actually when, culture matters because Actually, you know what, what, what happens is if a business is struggling, it's like, forget culture. We've got to figure out how to survive now. So it's like, you know, all of this is put aside. The problem though is, if you put all of that aside, that then also has a negative impact on the people and how we're driving the business.

Vinay 29:40

Exactly. the irony.

Sarah 29:41

So an enabler. So it will enable you out of situations. As much as it enables you into situations if you don't manage it. Cause the reality is, and I remember I was in the building. That. I was actually in the building that the idea for the Culturevators came from and I walked up, to it was a co working space, and I walked up to a desk and there was a coffee mug that had been left on the desk for quite some time. Not mine, by the way, but it had been left there. And I sort of picked it up being the good, you know, citizen that I am. I picked it up and I was like, oh that's disgusting, And as I walked it to the kitchen to wash it up, I thought, cultures growing in this mug, right? It's happening whether you put intention behind it or not, When you bring a group of people together, whether that's physically or virtually, same thing, they will build a culture. You did it in, you know, you talked about doing it in Zoom, like, it will happen. So you can either set it with intention, Create it in a way that tells a story that is aligned and compelling for the people that are going to consume that story. Align it and connect it with your customers that are going to experience that story. And involve your people. So you are almost co creating it with them as opposed to it being something that, like I said, the values. transcribed or translated into some sort of behaviour framework that then gets communicated. it's top down. what

Vinay 31:24

I'm hearing you say, so what I'm hearing are two things. One, I'm hearing that whether you intend to or not, a culture is always created. As soon as One, or more people get together, it's going to happen. the role of the leader is to help to create a deliberate design. Of that training, or, I mean from an authoritarian perspective, but the way that a leader operates influences how that culture is, grows. spreads, how far it goes, and you,

Sarah 31:59

but also how it breaks.

Vinay 32:00

Also how it

Sarah 32:01

breaks. and erodes

Vinay 32:02

And what's interesting, cause you were talking about subcultures, and you know, we often talk about inconsistency and customer experience being one of the killer things. And I was sharing a story recently about an experience I had on a train, where I was on a train, it was going, it was running late. I had, in my planned journey, there was only like a five minute window to train, to change trains. But on this particular day, this train was running late. So by the time I'd left the station, we'd already missed. This window to change trains, so now we're going to have to wait, or it looked like we were going to miss, it was going to be very tight anyway, and we're on this train, and the train member of staff, I think they might have been the train manager, I don't know, but they were a member of staff, they're on this train, and they picked up that people are murmuring about, we're going to miss our connection, so they very quickly assure customers that are on the train, Right, I know we're gonna miss, we, we could miss this connection, it's on this platform, when we get off this train, you go left, right, you jump off the train, you go left, right, it's over to that platform over there, I'm going on that train as well, she says, so, follow me, and she said, what I recommend we do is we all, we all get up just before the train, gets to the platform, but she said, what I'm also gonna do is I'm gonna radio ahead and see if we can hold the train for a couple of minutes, it'll give us enough time to get across the platform. So she does all that, I hear her make the radio call ahead, she agrees it all, she comes back out, communicates to the customers, we get to the platform, we safely run, because in public transport safety is number one, but we do it in a very safe, way, we have, to, have to have to have to, Yeah. you it was you it was safe. So we weren't running like maniacs, but we were in a safe way, quickly making our way to the platform, We got on the train, she then went through the carriages Every person she's run that train she made sure they got on, oh you've got on, you've got on, you've got on, you've got on. Now, brilliant story that people go, wow, what a great customer experience, isn't that amazing? Now, was that a one off in an isolated culture of one because one person felt compelled to behave that way, whether that was their upbringing, which you could just say is culture, whether that would be the company culture, but something made them feel a certain way so they behaved a certain way, or is that the company culture that's created the platform for them to do that. Would any other manager, training manager, member of staff, done the same thing? And that's the, that's for me one of the indicators of how well your culture is embedded when you see consistency in behaviour. So you could swap out people and they would probably make similar or same decisions that are aligned with.

Iqbal 34:43

But do you think that that's possible? Also comes down to, and I, you know, I've hired a lot of people in my, in my, lifetime and the businesses have, businesses have, always said we need to make sure that the people we're hiring are aligned to our culture. not

Sarah 34:59

That's not what they say. they say. Are they a good culture fit?

Iqbal 35:03

a good culture fit? yes, that's it, that's it, that's the one I'm looking for. so your point around this particular person, that's a good hire, right? Because it sounds to me like, it could be a cultural thing that's been embedded within the organisation, but actually that's probably because of the individual

Vinay 35:20

Well yeah So is that a good idea is that a good hire by accident, So you've just managed to employ a hero in your business, that whoever experiences that one person will always get that kind of experience, Or is it a good hire because they are somebody who, can operate in an environment that we create that will then behave in a way that represents what we want our customers to feel.

Sarah 35:46

So, this, that story, inspired me to, I haven't recorded it yet, but I've written it, inspired me to write a webinar about it's not my pay grade. Because that, you know, again, the lady that you were referring to, she she too could have been feeling a whole tonne of stuff in that moment.

Vinay 36:11

You

Sarah 36:12

you know, I'm late now. This has affected me. I'm going to have to deal with all of these gnarly customers. I don't really, you know, it's the end of my shift. Like there could have been a ton of stuff going on for her. That comes back to my point about connecting how you feel and how you behave. So I, that, that example of that employee to me was somebody first and foremost who knows how to emotionally regulate.

Vinay 36:45

Now

Sarah 36:48

we don't know what she was feeling, right? But I think we could, we can understand how she could have been feeling a bit annoyed about Another late train, more annoyed customers, why do I do this job? All of that stuff. And we probably resonate. We've been in that situation ourselves. She made a choice in that moment. And I think that is what compels me in this piece of work because she made a choice and the choice she made was probably partly she's a good person. You've picked a good hire. She naturally serves people. She's a good communicator. She's a good strategic thinker about, you know, she's all of those things, but she made a choice in that moment to do those things and would probably make the same choice again. Partly because she's emotionally regulated and she's set to to do that, but it's rewarded or certain things are not tolerated. So she's clear on by doing those things, she will get the outcome or the reward or the personal satisfaction, like whatever it is. and, it could be one or many or all of those things, right? But, I came back to this thing. She didn't turn around and go, I'm not, doing that. I'm not doing anything over and above. I can, I can go to the office, I can talk over the intercom system and say, get to this platform. The train's gonna be late. like, basic level stuff. but she went over and above and I think that that's what, yeah, that's when I get excited about this stuff.

Iqbal 38:26

Yeah, yeah, it's just the motivation. Going back to your point, right? There is a motivation. is it? Is it because there is a reward? or is it a personal sense of satisfaction that, you know, we've got customers who are now happy and I don't maybe directly get rewarded for this, but, but,

Sarah 38:43

exactly. But then, but that comes back to where we started this conversation. What is happiness? What is motivation If you as a leader, if you figure that out and you are able to, so I did, I did a lot of work when I first started working with New Wave Learning, the project that they gave me was around inclusive leadership. and I spent 18 months on, on that project designing, designing and delivering to 300 managers globally. This inclusive, leadership inclusion, and again, you know, inclusive cultures gets talked about a lot. Inclusion is a real commitment. If you are not carving out time to understand individuals at an individual level, you are never going to be inclusive. You're just not, it's such a commitment and it's an everyday commitment. You have to get to know the individual and I think that's where, as a leader, you're then able to take some, yeah. To take some ownership around. I have, I mean, what's the, I don't even know. let's say 12 people in my team, that's the that's the average number of team members for manager these days, I'm not sure, but I've got 12 people in my team and we understand the, we understand the overarching vibe of this place, The culture of this place, is X, Y, and Z. But for me to get the best out of my 9, 10 individuals and for us to, you used the word earlier, collaboration. Again, another word that we don't really understand. We throw it around a lot, we stick it on posters. We say that we value collaboration. We don't really understand what it means, but for us to collaborate effectively effectively, and do our bit towards this thing that we're doing, I need to, I need to think smart and I need to, I've got to, I've got to co create something with the people here for us to feel what we need to feel to be part of that bigger, and that's not to say you go rogue and go against it, you know? it's, that's where the top down. Your North Star approach is important, but the freedom, giving people the freedom to, to, to, create in their space for what is going to work for their Individuals is incredibly important.

Vinay 41:10

it comes back to that phrase, freedom within frameworks, What we, what I shared on a podcast previously, I think, you know, that's, that, and when you, when you look at The classic ingredients of how do you run an organisation, you have an enduring purpose, you have a mission, you have a vision, you have values and all those kind of things. The role of the North Star is to give people their, the calibration of, am I, is what I'm about to do, and that is how I'm. Choosing to behave and the choices I make, the decisions I make, consistent with getting us to that place. But that's predicated on that place being described at a level that's meaningful and can be understood by the people that are listening to that. Just having five words on a thing that, says it's just this can be quite difficult. That's part of the thing. So then that's part of the sort of, the framework So you get that clear North Star, and then you have a set of, in order to get there, again, classic ingredients, in order to get there this is how we think we need to behave as a group of individuals, and I think in what you're saying is, is, we stop there because we think it's, we, we, we tend to stop there and go it's behaviour, But actually the the layer under that is how do we need to have our people feel inside our organisation, Such that they do feel they can behave That way And then those behaviours drive these decisions, outcomes, that then take us toward that North star. and so, that understanding of how do we make our people feel every day, through the physical environment, through the emotional environment, through the language that we use, through the conversations we have.

Sarah 42:52

I'd, I'd, I'd pause and challenge there. It's not how we make our people feel. That is one, that's one arm of this. Right There is a listening. There is a listening exercise. You could just start. You could just start very simply. With a listening exercise, just in the same way as you do your you know, your client satisfaction. Surveys, we have employee surveys, there are pulse, surveys. you know, all sorts of different ways I left I left somewhere the other day and there was an iPad by the exit and it said, how did we make you feel today? And I, you know, pushed the green button and like, we can, we can extract that data as a, as a listening exercise. But again, oftentimes when we're doing that, it's against a set of criteria that we want to know about. Or someone else wants to know about. Right? Where, where are the conversations happening for For people to not only name their experience, but also share the stories that give context and meaning to that experience? are those Where are those conversations happening?

Vinay 44:02

it's interesting because we often talk about insights and the, Talking about technology and how AI and Insight can analyse and interrogate conversations that are transcripted to bring nuances through that you wouldn't normally get in a typical score. So, picking up sentiment, but beyond sentiment, you know, syntax, constructive language, all of those things that can give us a real indicator to what people are saying, so you can, you can get that from there. And I have to say that I can normally walk into an organisation, spend 30 minutes in there, listening to what people are saying, and get a pretty good idea of the kind of environment that

Iqbal 44:40

I'm

Vinay 44:42

in, in a similar way, because you hear. the way that people describe their daily tasks, the challenges they face, the way they speak about colleagues and customers, you can get a real sense of what, what it feels like to be in there. So I think That those data points aren't often captured or very rarely captured in an engagement survey or a culture survey in the same ways, a lot of CSAT surveys are the questions that we want to ask. Our customers to tell us how satisfied are you with these things? But we only ever get the answer to the questions that we ask.

Sarah 45:19

Yeah, And I think this goes both ways, but it'd be interesting to explore this with you. this with you're also only going to get the answer that I feel brave enough to tell you.

Vinay 45:30

Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah 45:31

So I get hit with customer satisfaction surveys all the time. If it's been a mediocre average, what I would expect, I delete the survey. I'm not interested, I only respond when I want to really praise or tell you that I am not satisfied.

Iqbal 45:47

Right.

Sarah 45:49

And then internally, the same thing. If you're, if it's exactly the same thing around, you know, what, what, what is safe to say? Versus what do I feel brave enough to tell you? They're two different, Two different things. And I want people to feel brave to tell me the truth.

Iqbal 46:10

So there is another step. I think that I'm starting to see, emerge now, There's a really big organisation I'm currently engaged with and they are looking at Now, what I see in this organisation is pretty much everybody's collaborating virtually, even though they're in the office, they'll spend 70% percent of their times in Conference calls, zoom calls, etc, etc, All of those conversations are captured, recorded. There's a lot of data around what's actually happening. and this amongst other organisations are really wanting to know what's happening on the inside. Yeah. They're doing the surveys and things like that, but but, actually it, may give them a sense of what's, happening to an extent, but they want to get deeper into the conversation. What's the general sentiment across the board? They also want to use the data for other things when it comes to how actively are they participating in meetings and conversations? Are we overdoing it? Are we having too many meetings for the sake of it as well? They don't want to create a culture of, you know, you know, attending as many meetings as possible, filling your calendar, you know, that type of thing. and you get that in a big organisation. But actually the interesting bit for me is, as you've just pointed out, we've got access to that data now that can give us a different story. the thing about storytelling, it's great if people tell you that story. But you can extract those stories from conversations that people are having internally, Because a lot of the time now, particularly in a multi national, multi global company, they are speaking virtually. even when I was leading a team, most of my people were in different countries. and pretty much every conversation I had was online. And I used to use tools to. you know, communicate with them. Use that information, those conversations to help me plan for what comes next and make me accountable. And make them accountable for what they're saying and what's been planned for. So I think we perhaps don't use the tools as well as we the tools as To help, we can, to really understand what's happening within this hybrid world that we live in. Because we're not, we're no longer working face to face, like I don't, you know, probably spend 20% percent of my time speaking to people face to face. Everything else is virtually, is

Vinay 48:18

virtual.

Iqbal 48:18

it's just a question of what could we, how can we use technology a little bit more to help understand where the culture is, rather than use technology to, to, to deliver a culture? I mean, that's not really possible.

Sarah 48:30

Yeah. So I, yeah. So again, I'd flip it slightly and say what what kind of conversations do we need to commit to have? Regardless of where we are located. So you said something in one of your previous episodes. I was listening to it yesterday for Pratt, and you said something about bringing people together, like it's really important for culture that you bring people together. And again, I look at my own experience of, of, of taking over new wave learning. We have no office. I have seven associates. I mean, I made some bold decisions, probably not smart ones if I'm honest from a commercial perspective. But when I first took new Wave learning over, I hadn't barely met, I hadn't met those people. I'd worked with them in virtual environments. spread all over the place. I managed to retain 100% percent of the associates that I wanted to retain. I managed to retain them all through. Commitment to culture, but not through ever us all being in the same space at one time. And again, it was about what kind of conversations do I need to be having? What do I, how do I need to connect with them on an individual basis, on a collect as a collective as well. Some of it I got right, some of it I didn't learn along the way, but it's, you know, the tools exist for us to connect wherever we are. We don't, we don't have to be doing this in person. I'm really glad we are, but we don't have to be doing this in person. We could, we could still be having a rich, deep conversation and not be in the same space because we committed to it So when you talk about, you know, the, I mean, one thing I do not miss, and there are lots of things, but one thing I do not miss from the corporate world, and when I see my clients turning up five minutes late to a meeting going, sorry I'm late. I was on another Teams call. I mean, it's just like the, you know, the, the, the, phrase of the entry into the room, right? Yeah,

Vinay 50:38

pretty

Sarah 50:38

much. I look at those big corporates and I look at the people in them, and I'm like, God, I'm glad I'm out of it because you're right. They are literally playing. mostly transactional, maybe a one to one, but that probably gets bumped. More times because somebody else is more important or some other, you know, so you've got these transactional, meetings back to back. There's no time for reflection. There's no time for regulation. Emotional regulation. There's no time for, I mean, there's no time for work because they're telling people about the work that they should be doing or haven't been doing. And it's like, how do you expect anyone to feel good? Well, let me, let me rephrase that, Catch my language there. Because you know, good, bad, there's no waiting. How do you expect people to feel a feeling that is going to bring about a good outcome? If that's what their day looks like, If That's what their day feels like? like. what does that feel like?

Vinay 51:35

Yeah. And it shing. Yeah. And then, and then it shows up outside in the experience that people have with that organization.'cause decisions are made on the inside a certain way. People are rushing through things, not thinking through things, accidentally designing customer journeys that maybe don't quite work,

Sarah 51:52

and what is that costing?

Vinay 51:53

And what is that costing

Sarah 51:54

Not just the individual, but the organisation.

Vinay 51:56

Yeah. And, and so, and, and look, you know, I think that, I'm not from a world that everyone needs to be together all the time, and I do believe that you can, hybrid cultures can work and stuff, and it's a different skill set that we need to develop as leaders in order to do that. I think the thing that I get from being in person with people is, from a sensory acuity perspective, you pick, I, I feel, this is my belief, you pick up more from somebody when you're in their presence because you see their face and expressions and part of them on camera, Yeah. but when you're in the room with them, It's about what's not being said. It's about what energy you're picking up that can also enrich that conversation. Cause the conversation's not just what we say, it's the way we are with each other. It's, you know, we call it chemistry or whatever you, whatever the phrase that people talk about. So I think that also plays a role in how people feel. Cause there, you know, there are people that walk into a room And their mere presence in that room shifts the energy, and then that immediately changes the feeling, that people feel, oh, I feel safe to contribute now, I feel, I feel I can say the things I want to say. The other indicator, quite interestingly, is when we talk about being brave enough to say what you want to say, or feeling safe to say, is, you know, where you go to conferences now, and there's lots of people that use Slido, and they ask audience questions but of course in Slido you can ask anonymously, so people will ask questions anonymously But even when you listen to those questions, you're like They've anonymously. asked that question, but when I listen to the question, there's a question behind that question, which is the real question that they want to ask, but they're not really asking so they've asked the question, kind of, in a way, because this is the safe way to ask that question. It's not really the question that they wanted to ask. so yeah, I, you you know,

Iqbal 53:48

I think it's an interesting point you say about bringing people together, I think that's, it's great for connections and building relationships. I think that's for sure, Maybe not. it has an impact on culture at some point. Interestingly, an zoom had embargoed travel for I think three years. So we couldn't travel and see each other. Like it was completely gone. And every time a survey was done, guess what was the number one thing that everybody wanted. need to get We need to get together, we need to see each other. Like, that was, it was so overwhelming over and above anything else, that that was a thing. And then when it happened, it was like, oh, ok.

Sarah 54:25

Yeah. So, and again, I, you know, I, I, I, I hear what you're saying, but I'm going to come back to the same point

Vinay 54:32

What

Sarah 54:33

was missing Was connection.

Vinay 54:37

Yeah, agreed.

Sarah 54:37

Yeah. Connection was missing.

Vinay 54:40

Yeah.

Sarah 54:40

I know it's possible with the right kind of intent, the right kind of conversation, the right kind of tool

Vinay 54:47

Yeah.

Sarah 54:48

to create conversations virtually that connects people.

Vinay 54:54

Yeah, it is.

Sarah 54:55

but it's a brave, it's a brave leader that, it, is a brave leader that comes to somebody like me and says, come and do what you do with my team. It's a brave leader.

Iqbal 55:08

Why why is, that? Is that because it's going to be disruptive or like what's, What's the reason why? They need to be brave?

Sarah 55:16

because I think it's uncomfortable to do something that is not what we've been talking about. You know, we've, we've come back round the in person conversation a couple of times and I'm, my sense is, I, I'm thinking, oh, I may have stepped a little bit too far into, you know, kind of my, you know, being so, having so much conviction about you do not need to be in person. But I'm glad we've stuck with it because it just shows the resistance that is felt to doing, to, to, to experience something in a different way. So it's a brave leader that says, Sarah, come in. Use, use, use the tools that you use. Do the thing that you do, have the conversations that you have or that you hold space for people to have. Yeah. It takes a, brave person because also what you're doing is you are taking time away. From the metrics, the customer, you know, the tasks that are on the, list, the milestones, you know, the, targets that you need to, whatever. You're taking time away from that because the kind of conversations that connect people are different

Iqbal 56:39

They're deeper. outside of business as usual. They're outside of business as usual, isn't it? It's not Not transactional.

Sarah 56:43

transactional. And, I think as well, the other thing that I commonly see is, oh, we're missing the water cooler conversations no. You're not missing the watercooler conversations at all.

Vinay 56:53

you're

Sarah 56:54

really not. missing those because they were not, they were, they were still superficial. I mean, again, I'm generalising, Forgive me, but they were still superficial. Oh, did you see EastEnders last night? What? You know, how's your cat? You know, I heard you, I heard you took your cat to the vet. like this. That kind of stuff. That's not, that's not what a healthy culture is made from. A healthy culture is where you can sit down and you can, say, ok, so let's replay what I did before we started the thing, right? I sat down with you and I said, during this conversation, I think I'm going to feel a few things that I don't really want to feel, but I acknowledge that I'm going to feel them. but I'm also going to set my intention to feel some things, to be able to deliver my best performance in this podcast. That was It was a quick conversation, but it was deep, it was meaningful. It gave you insights into the environment. That I wanted to, that I was creating for myself as a leader, the environment I was creating, the conditions I was creating. So that you had some understanding. It didn't take long.

Vinay 58:06

No.

Sarah 58:07

It was one question, a deck of cards to name the emotions and me sharing that with you and you asking, are you asking me a couple of questions? It was quick, but you know,

Vinay 58:17

Yeah.

Sarah 58:17

And understand a lot more about me Yeah. than when we sat down. But that takes a brave, it takes a brave person to invite that when the reality of the world is, as you have described it, technology is forcing everything to be done quicker. Clients want things faster, they want it cheaper. Everything is squeezed. So it almost feels like a luxury,

Vinay 58:43

but

Sarah 58:44

it's not. It's absolutely essential that we get these conversations Into people's workspaces.

Vinay 58:54

Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, I'm 100 percent with you on the quality of the conversation, absolutely. I think, just reflecting on what you've said, and searching my, my mind and my belief system for where's the bringing people together piece coming from. It's, it's, it's probably a set of biases I have because where I've seen it work, and I've been involved. That's been a big part of it. I wouldn't say it's the only thing, because, in the same breath, I have relationships with family from across the world that I've never met, but I can still have a deep, meaningful conversation with them. Now, when I meet them in person, I believe, those relationships then go to another level, because I feel like when you're in person with with somebody, it does elevate it. I'm not saying that you have to be in that space to do it, so I agree. I'm still from a place of I think there is a role for bringing people together physically, together. I don't think being together five days a week, Every single day, is necessarily going to make it any better than people working how they work right now. I mean I know this isn't a podcast about remote working versus hybrid working, but, I think going back to what we said, culture will be created, whether you want it to or not. and it's If you can improve the quality of conversation between your people, if you can help create the conditions that don't make people feel happy, that can create the conditions where there's a greater opportunity for them to feel what they feel, where, happy is not the right word, but where they feel the kind of sensation that enables them to be brave and come forward, Then I think you have the makings of a culture, That will be reflected on the outside of your organisation to customers that will receive that and go, gosh, you know, this is, this is an organisation I can be loyal to this. I'm feeling it, I'm feeling it through that transmission.

Sarah 1:00:51

So transmission. so I, so, I I have been going on this journey for, long time and I, I absolutely hear everything you've just said. And I feel it, because where I got to is the connection between those two things is if I want my cus if I want my clients to feel loyal,

Vinay 1:01:14

yeah.

Sarah 1:01:15

I have to reduce the trust gap within my organization to, it's the smallest gap it can be.

Vinay 1:01:24

Yeah.

Sarah 1:01:26

I have to, I have to, my intention has to be to close the trust gap.

Vinay 1:01:30

Yeah.

Sarah 1:01:31

Because Because the, if, if, if there, if there is high trust within the internal experience, so I can speak up, I can challenge, I can, I can bring up and say. I'm not feeling at my best today. There's no point in me being present. You know, like all of, all of the, all of those things, you know, life happens, all of that stuff. If, if trust is high, Guess what? Loyalty and customers will be felt

Vinay 1:01:59

Yeah, That's, that's where I've landed.

Sarah 1:02:01

Yeah, I, That's, and that's where I've landed on it.

Vinay 1:02:04

I

Sarah 1:02:04

And the enabler, the enabler for trust to be high is emotional data, emotional connection.

Iqbal 1:02:12

Yeah, yeah. And that's with conversations with people, as you've said, more, than just discussing work, but actually, what's the outcome of the work that you're doing? How's it making you feel? and then how are you managing those, these feelings too, as you navigate, those difficult times and when it comes to, you know, delivering. a good service to your customers. At times, you're having to put yourself out there but you don't have anybody to, communicate that to. you. Yeah. And you're keeping it to yourself constantly. And sometimes it goes unrewarded and, and at times it's just having a conversation. And I think that's what, being, having that culture of culture of, I guess not, openness is one thing. Being vulnerable Is another, and it's something that you know, the teams that I've always built, I've always tried to create a culture of, actually you can talk to me about whatever, in terms of, you know, the way you're handling work when you're running into issues and you're having to deal with it, you know, you feel free to, to give me a call and we can discuss those in more detail or whatever. right, Whatever you're feeling.

Sarah 1:03:19

Yeah. So so grateful that you brought up that language. Feel free. It's a feeling. So we say a lot of these things as leaders. But what are we doing in our behaviour,

Iqbal 1:03:35

to

Sarah 1:03:37

make people believe That they can be free. To come and, feel free?

Iqbal 1:03:43

because everything has guardrails, especially in a, corporate environment right, you can feel free to an extent, Yeah,

Sarah 1:03:49

absolutely.

Iqbal 1:03:50

And that's why for me, it's like if we know, we know the job that we're doing to serve our customers. Because when you're challenged in being able to do that job, you should be able to vocalise it within the business to say, these are the problems, this is where the issues are. I I, need the ability to share that with my leader or my colleague or somebody, so that I'm, not feeling alone in that situation. And I think that's been a consequence of hybrid working. And just going back to your point, CIPD did a, I've done a survey in 2025 and the one thing that stood out again was culture. Like in terms of the surveys that they did, they felt culture was the thing that is the thing, is the thing.,the thing that's impacted the most. And I think it's a perception thing as well. And it's a lot of it's to do with organizations haven't handled it well as people have gone remote, they've not been able to as you've said, the tools are there. No,

Sarah 1:04:46

they've not established the conditions.

Iqbal 1:04:48

They haven't established conditions exactly that. exactly,

Sarah 1:04:50

It's a change. I mean, you know, going, being forced to go fully remote, the way that we did it was reactive. It was, but but there was a sense of we're in it together, so we're gonna make it work. I mean, how many quizzes did you go to in Zoom? You know, like, again, the fun factor, this kind of, this like the fun factor, we go there because it's easy, it feels, it feels good, it feels nice, it feels light hearted, it feels all those things. So we go there because it's easy and we can What we didn't do, and I, I didn't, I didn't find, I didn't find the emotional culture deck, which is a tool I use to facilitate these conversations until after that time. But that's what was needed. It's not therapy. It isn't therapy. This, none of this is, it's not therapy, but it is being able to name what you're feeling, understand the relationship with that feeling and how you're behaving. Whether it's as a reflective exercise so you can course correct and rein it back in, or whether it's as an intention setting. What do we collectively need to feel so that we can tell each other what we really think? And not fear, repercussion, or, you know, not hold back or whatever, you know, whatever it is. And, and not, you know, not every culture is going to be defined by the same set of emotional conditions. But, you know, it's not, this is not one size fits all. This is exactly the point, right? You are creating something that works for your community of people.

Vinay 1:06:28

Yeah. And then,

Sarah 1:06:29

But making sure that it aligns with what you are delivering to your client as well. That's the that's the

Vinay 1:06:36

ROI, Okay. So, we're kind of, Towards the end of the

Sarah 1:06:41

Yes.

Vinay 1:06:41

this podcast. it's really

Sarah 1:06:43

like I've only just gotten started as well.

Vinay 1:06:45

we could be here all day. covered some really great ground we've dispelled some of the, I wouldn't say myths, or misunderstood truths that people hold about what culture is,

Sarah 1:06:57

the uncomfortable truths, I like to call them.

Vinay 1:07:00

I think we've talked about, you know, the misconception that, that, that, that, that, that, that, Culture is the physical, things that we have around us, that, it's a, it's not so much about behaviour, but behaviour comes from emotion, emotion is what leads us to, to choose our behaviours and how we feel, so, how we feel is really important, and actually culture is about creating conditions where those feelings have a greater opportunity. To up for people, which then drives their behaviour. and we've and we've talked about the relationship between the inside and the outside, which is what one of the core themes in what we talk about is. so, if you really want to drive, if you really want to deliver an exceptional experience on the outside, you can't you can't ignore the inside. but The two things are, how you make your customers feel isn't necessarily the same. Description of how you make your, how you want your employees to feel, so they can be different things. So actually the question to ask is how do we want our customers to feel in order that they be loyal And come back and tell their friends? How do we need to feel so that we behave in a way that creates that

Sarah 1:08:04

Yeah

Vinay 1:08:05

And that's the key. So,

Sarah 1:08:06

making that alignment and connection between the

Vinay 1:08:08

Yeah So in, in summarising, I know it's difficult to summarise, what's one thing that you would leave people who are listening to this podcast to take away that they could. Take back to the workplace, whether it's a 20 people business, a 50 a 50 people a 500 people business, if you're a leader listening to this, what's one thing that you'd like to take away that they could start to play with this week?

Sarah 1:08:32

I would, I would want them to think about the emotional data. The emotional data that they're already noticing. be noticing

Vinay 1:08:40

it, but

Sarah 1:08:40

They'll already be noticing it, but because there's not a me, there's not a dashboard for it or a metric for it. They're like, you know, just what is that? What is that? What's that emotional data that you know is there?

Iqbal 1:08:53

there?

Sarah 1:08:54

and yeah, and, and, and get curious, get curious with that. But the other thing I would also really encourage people to start thinking about is the emotional tax that they and their team are currently paying. So those things that you are noticing, if I could put them on a p l for the finance department, I would like, I would have an emotional tax line. Because when the feeling is off, it's a negative response from your customer. it's a great idea. That is. Stuck in the head or heart of somebody that doesn't feel brave enough to say it.

Vinay 1:09:39

Yeah,

Sarah 1:09:40

Like, that's your emotional

Vinay 1:09:41

yeah, Yeah.

Sarah 1:09:42

And it it has a, it's, it's, it's, there and it's real, but because we don't talk about emotions in that way, they never get taken seriously enough.

Iqbal 1:09:53

Yeah, I also feel like even if you have worked it out, like in terms of you've addressed it, you've understood that, you've understood where the emotions are, there's always a reaction to it. But there isn't a follow through or consistency to try and maintain perhaps a culture. And I've seen kind of, you know, ups and downs where there's a whole branding exercise done around culture you know, these are our six values. this is what we you know, we talked about this. Yeah, And it's how do you then, I guess once you've addressed it, how do we now take that next step?

Sarah 1:10:27

Yeah, so, so that, the, the one practical thing you can do is, well, first of all, go and ask everybody, ask yourself first without looking, don't cheat. step? looking, What are your company values? And please get in contact with me. Find me out and tell me honestly how many you remembered. I did this I did this activity with a client recently and it's brilliant cause he just went, ok, Like as soon as I asked it, he got it, right? So do that exercise. How many do people, do people know? And, and of the ones that they remember, ask them, them, What do you feel about that value that has made you remember it? Right. Because again, client experience, employee experience. Memorable. It is a memory. It is a feeling. Yeah. So ask them what has made, what's made that value, memorable. Listen to what they say, and some of the words will give you the answer. some, you know, you'll get, again, you'll get some data that starts to say, those feelings are the emotional conditions that we need to deal with. think about creating. Mm-hmm. It's not that you've got the values wrong, It's just your values have not been created or designed in a way that has created a memory. It's made, it's, there's, it it lacks a feeling. It's not resonating with people.

Vinay 1:12:00

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sarah 1:12:01

So one of the, yeah, one of the, one of the, ways that, one of the starting points for for where we do most of our work is that, you know, oh, we think we need to, we think we need to look at our values. We think our values have changed.

Vinay 1:12:13

So, have changed. So, Sarah, if people want to do that and

Sarah 1:12:16

explore, that, cause

Vinay 1:12:17

because we're in danger of opening another podcast up there. Sorry!

Sarah 1:12:20

Going

Vinay 1:12:20

to get kicked out of the studio. going to get kicked out of this studio in a to explore that, if people do want to explore that and go on that journey, how do they find you? what's the best way to get in touch with you? How can they, how can they experience your work

Sarah 1:12:34

Yes. So, finding me on LinkedIn is the easiest and quickest way to engage. So Sarah Danner on LinkedIn, you will find me and the Culturevators, showing up quite a lot there. So that's the best place to go

Vinay 1:12:48

to go. Fantastic Well Sarah thank you so much. Oh,

Sarah 1:12:50

Thank you. Thank you.

Vinay 1:12:50

Thank you.

Sarah 1:12:51

Thank you.

Vinay 1:12:52

interesting some nice challenge healthy challenge tension We

Sarah 1:12:56

held it. We held the tension.

Vinay 1:12:59

and these conversations are always like, our conversations on here aren't always complete What they're designed to be is a conversation starter for the people listening That take this away and then go actually let's explore that conversation a little bit more It's not a kind of a complete episode but yeah Look thanks so much for coming to join us today and if you've liked what you've heard today please subscribe on the bell or the button below. keep a look out for our next episode and we'll see you next time.

Iqbal 1:13:26

Thank you.