The $247bn Market You're Missing

Accessibility is still treated as a specialist topic in many organisations. Something niche. Something optional. Something to deal with later. In this episode of Breaking the Blueprint, that thinking is challenged head-on.

The conversation explores how businesses quietly exclude up to a quarter of the market, not through intent, but through the environments, systems, and services they design every day. From physical spaces to digital journeys, accessibility failures show up as anxiety, silent workarounds, and lost loyalty that never appears in dashboards or reports.

Using real examples from travel, retail, workplaces, and service design, the episode reframes disability through the social model. The issue is rarely the individual. More often, it is the environment that disables people. That shift changes how leaders think about customer experience, employee experience, and commercial decision-making.

The discussion also looks at the role of data, AI, and voice technology. Not as silver bullets, but as enablers that only work when empathy, training, and leadership alignment come first. Technology can remove friction, but it cannot replace dignity.

This episode is for leaders, designers, and decision-makers who want to build organisations that genuinely work for people. Not because regulation demands it, but because better experiences create better businesses.

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Transcript

Vinay: 0:05

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Breaking the Blueprint. This is season two, episode one, and we for, for full transparency, we're recording this episode before the Christmas break. Hence, you can see our lovely, festive decorations here, but you'll be watching it on the other side. So just wanted to wish you all a wonderful Christmas. I hope you had a lovely festive period and you're now back in the office trying to remember your login password. Don't worry. We've been there too. so it, how was, how is your Christmas going so far?

Iqbal: 0:37

Yeah, no, pretty good. We are just, coming to the end of the year now, it's been a tough year. Busy with work and everything else. And, we've obviously finished the first season of breaking the blueprint. I can't believe it's been like, nearly a year now. I think it's been an, it's been a year, so as we moving into season two, just looking forward to the next two weeks of just taking a bit of a break. So yeah. Good, good to be here. And, ready to go for, 2026.

Vinay: 1:02

And of course we're before Christmas, but is there shopping for kids presents and all of that thing going? Okay. What's been your, what's been your retail customer experience?

Iqbal: 1:10

I must say I've left that to the mrs unfortunately, yeah, that's, fortunately, yeah, Unfortunately, for me anyway, but yeah, no, it's, it is going well. We're just looking forward to a bit of downtime and then come back refreshed, in the new year.

Vinay: 1:23

Yeah. brilliant. as a reminder for people who may be tuning in who have not watched this before we started this podcast for a real specific reason, customer experience had been boxed into this corner, a function, a team, a department that was tasked with doing all things customer experience. And when you and I met, we had this conversation about how do we break the conversation out of that box? How do we help people organisations that wouldn't normally think about customer experience or the experience Our customers have to be more accurate in their daily work. marketing, finance, procurement, front office, back office, people around the organisation.'cause one of the things that's true about customer experience, it only really works when there's true collaboration the organisation. When the dots are joined across, that we've spoken about many, times. So that's our prime objective here, and we like to bring in different guests, different people from different angles, to join in the conversation. And today we have, Jerry Angrave welcome, Jerry. Jerry and I met, a while back. our paths crossed through mutual contacts. I think LinkedIn's responsible for many relationships now. and, we had a, couple of really great chats, but, Jerry, is doing some really, interesting work in the world of accessibility. So I wanted to get him on to share some of his wisdom, some of his experience, and help us have some real deep conversation today. Jerry, welcome to the pod and introduce yourself. Tell us a bit about you, what you do, and your work and the boards that you sit on and the, mission that you, are, undertaking.

Jerry Angrave: 2:57

Great. firstly, thank you for, having me. yeah, it's a really interesting time to be involved in, customer experience and yeah, it's my background. I'm originally a, marketeer. so I came through that route. I was at in corporate land, and my roles then went into customer experience, which I think a lot of people have had the similar path. Yeah. and then back in 2012, I set up my own business as a customer experience consultant. and since then, been working for organisations in a lot of different areas on their, own customer experience programs. And, I, think you made the point really good at, the start there. Yeah. It's about, it's not just about. Customer experience, it's about managing the experiences that they have in an intentional way. Yeah. That drives all sorts of benefits. and, Yeah. so I love being in this field. on the accessibility side of things, yeah, personally, I it's a, real interest to me because I have a, son who has a, what they might label an intellectual disability. and so it's a personal passion of mine, but as a result of that, I also now chair the accessibility advisory board at Virgin Atlantic. and I sit on the advisory boards, the accessibility advisory boards at Heathrow Airport and Bristol Airport as well. yeah, my two favorite subjects, customer experience and accessibility, what's not to like. yeah, so really looking forward to our conversation.

Vinay: 4:24

yeah, me too. Me too. And it's gonna be a good one because, look, I'll make the apology right up front. I'm not an expert in this area, so excuse any clumsy language. I'm not, it's not intentional. I'm not trying to offend anybody by, labels or, terminology, that I'm not an expert in. But when we think about, when we think about the accessibility market, let's call it a market for the sake of argument, when we think about, people in that band, the statistics show there's 1.3 people globally that live with some kind of disability. And in the UK alone, what they call the purple pound, which I guess ref, is referring to the disposable income or the spending power of that group of people is worth around 274 billion pounds. And it also, the research suggests that 75% of disabled customers avoid businesses with poor accessibility. so they'll look for people that will serve their need better, which makes sense. So when you look at that scale, when you look at the size of the market, you look at the number of people that are impacted, why do you think accessibility still feels a bit niche in organisations? and it's not a natural conversation so often.

Jerry Angrave: 5:41

Yeah, it's a really interesting question and I think for me, start to go back to your original point about, using the risk of using clumsy language. I think it is we all have that, still have that today. but I think that can sometimes make people a little bit wary of, leaning into it, if you like.'cause I don't want to offend anybody, so I better not do this or do that and, end up being paralysed, not doing anything. in terms of the terminology, just on that for a moment, and we'll come back to the, commercial side. I've had some really interesting conversations where we've talked amongst ourselves around these boards, these advisory boards about what terminology do we use? And actually the key thing is what terminology would. Our customers use, how would they describe them themselves, if you like. And one of, because part of the language was around customers with disabilities and the thinking there was actually, that's the wrong way of looking at it because it should be, these are customers, people like you, me, who are disabled by the environment that we create for them. And I think having that mindset is really interesting that actually we are putting barriers in their way, sometimes unintentionally, but the whole point is that they are less able to use our facilities, our stores, our shops, our car parks, our airports, because of some of the barriers that, that we put in place. Whether that's physically or just thinking, actually, do you know what? They don't get it. I'm not gonna go there because I've had horrendous experiences in the past, so, I think framing. the group that we're talking about. and the, where we've landed in most of the forums is The we're we are talking about. people who, are disabled by the environment that, that they find themselves in. Because there's that social model and medical model of disabilities, which is around medical model focuses on the disability. What, is your disability? Yes. Which is a horrendous question. Yeah. Yeah. But the social model is more about, okay, what barriers are we putting in place? Yeah. Whether you are walking down the street or buying something online, what are those barriers? So I think getting that framing right at the start

Vinay: 7:55

that's a really useful definition and what it al also does for me, zooms us out. Because look, I think many people might, when they think disability, immediately go to somebody that has a physical disability, some description, who needs to use a wheelchair or have mobility challenges or, that kind of thing. But actually, when you zoom out and say, by the barriers we create, not only does it include those people, but it brings in other groups that are unintentionally excluded. Yeah. By those barriers that are put in by the way that we design things or the way that we set up things. I think that's,

Jerry Angrave: 8:31

that increases and the way we expect everybody to use the facilities that we've had in place for a number of years. So for example, on a on onboard an aircraft, yeah, there's very few aircraft have fully accessible toilets, bathrooms, lavoratories washroom. and as a result, a lot of people who travel will say, actually, even though I'm gonna be on a seven hour flight, do you know what I'm not gonna drink? Because I know I can't use the toilets on board. So for 12 hours before I fly, I'm not gonna drink or I'm not gonna eat. Because often when I eat I might be sick, I might have nausea, and I don't want to. have that on plane. So it's it going back to. Pure customer experience. it is about knowing your customers Yes. And their issues And their challenges and their anxieties And their worries and their hopes and their expectations. yeah, yeah, I think framing that is, is really a, good starting point. I think what I've,

Iqbal: 9:30

in recent years, I think what we've also seen is better awareness around the different types of disabilities. there's a lot more awareness around ADHD and other types of, types of disabilities that are there. So it's just understanding where, whether that's now feeding into how these processes and these services are built, considering we are more aware of, disability beyond the wheelchair, because that knowledge is is pretty much there. so it's just the question is why is it taking so long for organisations to, to adopt the right processes, yeah, to develop that.

Jerry Angrave: 10:05

Yeah. I, think, it's partly, I, there is a recognition of the value, the commercial value. Yeah. So you write. and I think in the UK is that one in four people have a disability of some kind. but they're the ones that we know about. And, to your point, I think one of the challenges is that we're all different, thankfully. Yeah. Yeah. but we're all kind of fighting challenges that nobody else knows anything about. and, I think the, maybe one of the challenges is if you are building a shopping center or a, railway system or an airport or a theater or a sports venue, how are you gonna cater for every single Yes. It's difficult challenge that everyone has, which is so that's probably one of the difficulties is in, in getting to that one of the, not the, easy ways, but a way around that is to say, actually, if you train your people up, so your people Understand that if somebody comes towards them and they're wearing the sunflower lanyard, for example, that they know that there might be a some, intellectual disability there, or a learning disability or, just somebody might have a colostomy bag, then it might need changing. Or they might have dementia or they might be with somebody who has dementia. then I think the training goes a long way. And so I think maybe to, maybe the focus has been very much on how do we build a different Yeah. Physical environment or physical digital environment. Yeah. But actually a quicker way is to make sure that your frontline people feel they're not gonna get into trouble by having a conversation with, somebody that might take a little bit longer.

Iqbal: 11:41

Yeah,

Jerry Angrave: 11:42

and, just having that empathy and awareness.

Iqbal: 11:44

Yeah, I think it's how you step up the awareness. And I think, we can use a bit of technology perhaps around, building personal preferences. knowing, obviously you mentioned a sunflower badge, that's obviously a physical way of doing it, but I think there's other ways in which where if you have, you're registered with a particular condition and the, business that you're engaging with is, informed and the frontline team are informed of what your personal preferences are from the outset means that you're not having to con consistently let people know. Like I, I've, my, my son also has a particular condition, so he is peg fed. So we've always gotta be considered, when it comes to traveling in particular, but we've got to repeatedly tell people, and I think that's quite, quite a difficult thing as a parent because you're having to voice that every time. If only there was a way that before I engage the travel, airline, they already know my pre, the preference of my child. So I don't have to repeat that to every frontline staff.

Jerry Angrave: 12:46

Yeah, it is a really interesting point.'cause it is a, it's not right that, parents need to repeat that information. and I think technology plays a, big part in that. But I think, and this may help answer your previous question about why is it taking so long, is I think there's, because the focus has been so much on what's the disability, what's the condition, and actually the focus needs to be how can we help? So when you book an airline ticket and you ask for assistance, you're also asked, what type of disability do you have Or are you in a wheelchair and is it a powered or is it, a manual wheelchair Do you have a vision impairment? That kind of stuff. Whereas it would probably be a lot more helpful to say, how can we help? How can we best help? and as you say, then you're not repeating that information so, often.

Vinay: 13:40

And what that reminds me, in fact, as you were speaking about, knowing

Iqbal: 13:44

Yeah.

Vinay: 13:45

the data up front and the experiences you have, two things came to mind in your example of we focus so much on the physical. So one, my experience of lead, I used to run special needs transport at National Express. I was managing director of the division that we had. And again, it's only when you're involved in these areas that your, awareness increases and you have better understanding, right? But it's not just about the customer who has the disability or the challenge, but it's the people that are traveling with them. So often families would have two kids that would go to a mainstream school and one kid that was in, a special needs school. But by that driver turning up late or not on time or something happening, it wouldn't just disrupt the education of one child as a knock on effect. On the other two of the entire family. So that's part one. So it's, not just about the customer who has the, challenge. It's about the kind of their family unit or the people they're traveling with. Yeah. and then the second thing, was I heard a horrible example. So Tanny Gray Thompson, I think it is the, Dame Tan Gray. she was speaking at an event that I was at and she was, she's in a wheelchair, former Olympian. And she turned up at one of the stations in London and rush hour and was at the barriers trying to get through. and the member of staff turned to her and said something like, I'm paraphrasing here, so I'm trying to remember what she said, but words to the effect of, can't you travel later? Don't you know that this is rush hour? and she beg your pardon? do you even have a job? What are you traveling for? And she explained that she was on her way to the houses of the Parliament to speak about this very thing with travel, ironically. and you still have examples of that now. They're extreme. You would hope that they're few and far between, but they do happen. And, you hear these horror stories.

Jerry Angrave: 15:36

Yeah, unfortunately. and we have to learn from those. it's not right that still happens, but I think one, one thing to come out of it, is using those examples in the training so that person who spoke inappropriately can actually see the consequences of their, what they were talking about, both in terms of the Physically. Okay, what's the effect on that? But also the impact, as you say, that will have on people traveling with them.'cause that's a really awkward conversation to have and it would actually make you think, do you know what, I'm not gonna go by rail again. yeah. Because I'm gonna find another way to, to travel, which, and it has sorts of consequences. But I think part of it comes back to, as you were saying, the, that, empathy not just with the person, But with their, family. Yes. if are traveling with a child, who, if they're about to have a an episode, if they're about to throw themselves on the floor and have a screaming fit, yeah. It's, if that comes about because of some sudden. some noises or flashing lights or somebody who's getting a bit stern and a bit cross, going through security at an airport and somebody shouts at you. Yeah. That can be a real trigger. Yes, it can. in, in in the same way that suddenly bright lights can be a real trigger. strong smells can be a real trigger. for, some people. Yeah. So I think understanding your customer, what could be a trigger and the, impact it has, not just on them, but on the, family as well. Yeah. is so, important. Yeah. it's if you are, traveling with someone who has, Parkinson's, they, I keep using airports as a, an example. Forgive me, but yeah, a lot of airports, the, walkway, the flows will, be nice white marble floors, the, duty free areas, there's retail areas will be nice, will be zoned in. They'll probably be black, black spany marble and stuff. The transition from one to The other. to To a person who has either Parkinson's or maybe a vision impairment, that looks like a step.

Iqbal: 17:44

Yes.

Jerry Angrave: 17:44

Is it up or is it down? Dunno. But it looks like a barrier of some sort. And so it is understanding those kind of issues. Yeah. That make, that makes you think actually, yeah. If we get it right for the people who have the disability thing, you're gonna get it right for the whole family as well. Because what you don't want is for you don't want any, anyone to have a, bad experience, but it's just, but the, PAs or the family or whoever it is, traveling with them, they're as much a part of that as well. And they're the ones who know that person the best. if you can't talk to that person. directly, because some people may be tetraplegic, they may be in a wheelchair, not able to speak. if they are, then have'em say, yeah, talk to that person, not in the way that your example just showed, but, talk to that person, not the, the member about that person.'cause by they're still there, they can tell you what they exactly what help they need. Yeah, yeah. A lot of it comes back to the, training.

Vinay: 18:41

feels like that part of the reason why it still feels niche, many organisations is that. Awkwardness, the clumsiness of the language, the fear of saying the wrong thing is of the discussion, but it's such a vast area of really trying to get into to understand, that I guess it presents its own challenges in doing that, but for all said, there's progress being made.

Iqbal: 19:03

yeah, I think it's probably a good time to switch gears and let's look at some good examples. Yeah, absolutely. Because we've talked about, it is a, this is complex. There's just, you're trying to, offer a service to every single type of person, and we know that's impossible. Yeah. We can obviously strive for perfection as much as we can, but it'll be good to get your thoughts on. where we're seeing some really good progress. personally, airports, as you've mentioned, I'm sure you can come up with lots of examples around quiet roots or sensory maps and things like that. HSBC, where, I'm currently engaged with at the moment, they're always thinking of ways in which they can enhance the experience. One of the things that they do, they have a quiet hour in some of their branch. So people with dementia and ADHD for instance, can come in during those quieter periods. So there's small things that these organisations are actively doing. I think the problem that I find is, although the progress is there, the awareness isn't like this quiet hour thing I had no idea about until I, obviously it doesn't concern me, but how are they making their customers aware? That these services are available. But Yeah. it'll be good to get some, see some examples. yeah,

Jerry Angrave: 20:11

and you're right. we shouldn't focus too much on, on what's not,'cause there's a lot that is happening, which is great. There's always more to be done. But I think yeah, that's a really good example of, what the bank is doing. And it, it's about, I think one of the things where progress has been made is in the understanding of the unintended barriers that we're putting in place. So it might be that, a banking hall at lunchtime, is gonna be really, busy. so actually some people want to come when it's less quiet. And actually that, that suits a lot of people. generally, I think the so I think one of the areas where progress really has been made is in the, engagement with people, who have lived experience. So a lot of the accessibility forums, whether that's for, an airport, airline, rail company bank, is. Reaching out to the people the employees, because any employer, particularly the size of HSBC is gonna have a lot of people who, will identify as having some kind of, accessibility need. So talk to them, get them involved. Yeah. but also talk to people who are, out in the community, a representative of charities, who can just bring that, have you thought about this? do you know that when, when somebody walks into a branch and there's lots of queues that can be a horrendous experience for some,'cause for a lot of people, that sensory reaction is, amplified exponentially. So what might seem to be a, it's nice and busy today and we've got plenty of people around actually, to some people that, that's horrendous. Yeah. it's funny, one of the lessons that, that we learned, recently, one of the airline forums was we talk about, making, facilitating getting people on board the aircraft first. So we often hear the announcements at the gate saying, yeah, if you are a family with children or if you have a, disability, whatever, come forward, we'll get you onto the aircraft first. and actually the realities for some people, they want to get on last because that whole, theater of, the, energy of everybody getting on, the plane, of putting the, bags up, of shifting, trying to ease past each other. There's announcements going on, there's people talking that can be just a horrendous experience. So they would rather get on last, but it was only through reaching out to, representative bodies and getting that lived experience into the training, as well as into the, general kind of way the business goes about it. Yeah.

Vinay: 22:52

Yeah. and I think, your earlier point about the way that it's defined, because it's not just about people that have physical disabilities or accessibility needs in all of this design. It's just that fundamental, understand your customers. often I see these customer segments that are created by marketing teams and customer teams, and you look at the little avatar they create. Okay, now you've got a bit of gender in there. There might be somebody of color in there, but you don't often see somebody who is labeled either through the, way that their representatives being in a wheelchair or some kind of, this person has an indicator where maybe the sunflower badge is put on them all to demonstrate that. So it's not always front and center of people's mind. and I think your point earlier on is none of this is intended, it's unintentional. I don't think anyone goes out to try and design something that people can't use. but if you don't understand your customers, you can't design it in, a really deliberate fashion.

Jerry Angrave: 23:50

Yeah, no, exactly. and there's, I, get that, we design for the majority and that kinda, but there's, to your original points, the, was it one in four people in the UK have a disability? there's a of people with a lot of spending. So I, think yeah, in creating those, personas and segmentation, I, think it's really important that, and again, I think that is starting to change, but the message has gotta get through the whole organisation. Yeah. so it might be, as you say, that the the, branch in store teams have identified, let's make a quiet time, but that's got to be important to the marketing team as well, so that they can prioritise it and get that message out. Yeah. So there's a lot of kind of internal engagement, stakeholder engagement that needs to happen as well. Otherwise, there will be pockets of teams doing stuff really well, but then just not joined up. it's A little bit like how customer experience was. Yeah. A few years ago, and it probably is to some degree. Yeah. It's yeah. Happening in pockets, but it's, it needs to be, just permeate throughout the whole organisation. It goes back to that, as you say, that the, insight about knowing your customers.

Vinay: 25:00

Yeah. And look, we've, touched on the point and accessibility is more than a wheelchair. We've, covered that in the, the framing of today's discussion. And, but I also wanted to add an another lens on, which is, it's not just about external customers, it's also about our colleagues and employees within. So we might be, good at designing our website or our app or our accessibly into store for customers who are coming in, but are we applying the same design thinking internally?'cause we will all have colleagues, who have that. and what worries me. me, I say concerns me, worries me. Maybe both. We have lots of conversation about technology. and the combination on this show is that you talk more about technology'cause that's your background and I'm much more from that kind human behaviour angle. And, we've had lots of conversations on here about AI and digital first and those things. How do we ensure that the, that same level of thinking around design is deployed internally as we bring AI co-pilots and tools and all these things in for people to deal with, particularly in frontline contact centers, but also back office. how do we, ensure that happens?

Jerry Angrave: 26:19

Yeah. it's a, really good point. and again, there's a lot more to be done, but I think the, technology, is evolving. and I was with somebody the other day who has a, vision impairment and they were using voice activated conversation with chatGPT, And, And, that was just allowing them to, do sandwich stuff so much quicker, getting an answer rather than trying to, use a, a modified keyboard and that kind of stuff. Just, talking, asking the question of co-pilot say it was and the, technology's there. But I, think it's a, really good point that amongst our colleague cohort, there. will be people who have a range of, we all have challenges of some sort and we are all on, everyone's on a spectrum of somewhere, but I think, yeah, it's a really good point You make that just have a look inside your own organisation. Reach out to those people. And a lot of companies do have DEI type programs, but use those people to not only design the customer experience, but also design the employee experience. And I think. You're right from the recruitment process to the places of work or, are people able to work from home as efficiently? Do they have the right setup, the right ergonomic structures? I think also what you've tapped into there is taking it a stage further is people internally, encouraging them to come forward, if you like, with the voice of the, customer, the voice of the disabled customer. So when you've got conversations around a new brand campaign or you are, you've got an infrastructure or an investment decision to make, what that mean to people who might have an accessibility need? And if you start embedding that as part of the program methodology So not only are you reaching out to get the voice of the customer, but you are reaching out to get the voice of the disabled customer, as well. and suddenly that takes on a whole new perspective. So I think you, you can do a huge amount. Yeah. just internally. and I think that's one of the areas where things have progressed, but you're right. technology is, yeah, no, I think is moving on really quickly,

Iqbal: 28:29

that's the really exciting thing for me is, we're seeing some, vendors like Microsoft for instance, you mentioned copilot. they're at being at the forefront around accessibility, way ahead, compared to some of the other vendors in this space. And, with their kind of assisted technology you mentioned, obviously, stuff like, text speech for instance, and embedding AI within that just has opened up a plethora of, services that now. All sorts of people can access. Yeah, I think it's now that next stage of I firmly believe that, the issue at the moment, the barrier is when, somebody with a disability is recruited, sometimes perhaps they're apprehensive about telling the employer. and some people are shy about telling their employer that they have this specific need because it could be used against them. so it's not that barrier still exists. And I think, again, if you, can make it easy for people to be able to personalise what they need without having to expose it to lots of people then all of the services that they have access to in an organisation takes that into account. Going back to the design part, I think that's really critical. But you can only design it if people need it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, there's a gap there as well.

Vinay: 29:41

and, we, were talking about it when we were coming into the studio that the job of the CX leader or the person who's leading the CX thinking in an organisation is often to think horizontally. You are, the conductor of an orchestra. You don't control all the parts, but you need them to harmonise in order to create the right outcome. We talk a lot about, breaking down silos, bringing people together to bright and collaboration. And that's not just because we want to get, processes better or we just want to design better, but the act of having people together more often broadens our horizon and our understanding. So those people who have those challenges are in those conversations to say, Hey, have you thought about if somebody's, I don't know, for example, I'll go back to my experience of, special needs transport with some of the kids. We were transporting certain colors, the lighting on the bus, not having the same driver every single day. they would all be factors that would disrupt their journey and their experience, but it's only through being exposed to that, that you start to understand and then you can make better decisions about how you deploy certain things. Yeah.

Jerry Angrave: 30:52

Yeah. I think we underestimate, sometimes the importance of predictability. Yeah. and, managing expectations. Yeah. So if you are going on that, bus or that train or going to that shopping center or the sports stadium, you know what to expect. And if it looks like something's gonna take it off plan, if you like there's, been a delay or roadworks, or the change of driver, then let's be proactive and just send a note to that person or their parents or, and say, actually, yeah, it's so and so who's gonna be driving the bus today? and here's a photograph of them. Yes. and so there are ways of, again, goes back to the understand your customers use the technology to be proactive and get that message to just manage expectations and. and I've been in that situation where with my son and. yeah, it's quite horrendous for everybody. They don't other customers, when he is throwing himself on the floor and having to write tantrum as it looks. Yeah. Yeah. it's not great for anybody. No. so yeah, I think that you that use of technology is, phenomenal and it's really powerful.

Vinay: 32:05

and, your earlier point about sharing information and data, is even more important. I'm like, if we ha if the three of us had disruption on a journey, we could get on the next train, we could jump on the next plane, we could call an Uber and get into it quite easily. But if you've got a challenge, if you are in a wheelchair, if you need to have a mobility scooter, or if you've got, some sensory challenges around lighting or whatever, but you've had to book in advance, like tech coaches, for example, at NX we had one seat that was available, a wheelchair seat. Now if you were on a, journey that had a connection. Yeah. If your incoming was late and you missed the one that you were booked onto, the next one might have somebody already booked into that chair and suddenly your journey is disrupted to a degree that's way worse than somebody like you, somebody like us. Yeah. but actually those, some of those things can be solved with better connectivity, technology, sharing of data and information with colleagues. Even if they couldn't get that person onto the next coach because they knew that, was happening, they can respond better.

Iqbal: 33:12

Yeah. The, the irony is that, so just on the, you from the outset, you mentioned obviously the opportunity and that, that whole data has come from what the government's gone and published to encourage everybody. except they, they're not getting things right themselves. just recently my wife's been trying to get a disabled badge for her mum, who's in severe need and she can't get to her bank and shopping and all sorts of things because her. There's so much paperwork, so much process that my wife has had to go through to help her and three weeks in, she still hasn't managed to get this because they don't have access to the medical records. simple things. You think just joining those dots together Yeah. could help, hugely improve the whole process and then allow my mother in order to be able to get access to the services that she needs. So I know we've gone back to where things are going wrong and it's, obviously we all have these anecdotal, experiences and it's easy to think about those negative things, but it's just knowing where we're seeing progress, I guess that's

Jerry Angrave: 34:16

the hard part. Yeah. and that's a really good example, but I, and I think where things are moving is, slowly the, conversations that companies are having internally Yeah. Is okay, not only what does this mean for customers, but what does it mean for somebody with a. With, dementia or a physical disability. and I think that it's moving slowly, it's moving in the right direction, But it's obviously we still have a long way to go. But there was, you mentioned ai and that's got a massive role to play, I think, as long as it's used in the, right way to solve the right problem. Yeah. Yeah. but, take a British sign language. that's, you, a lot of companies now have a digital version of, British sign language. Yeah. So that, you, someone who is, hard of hearing can, can understand what's going on and, be involved in the experience as everybody else's.

Vinay: 35:13

it's a great, it's a great, it's a great point and example again, because, in days gone by, we'd normally have a different phone number that you called if you were hard of hearing. Yeah. Or you'd have to request braille or you'd have to do something. So there, there was more friction points there. But you would think with technology now, that you could call the same number and be detected as somebody who needs some assistance Yeah, and Without, dis, without what's the word I'm looking for, without, inconveniencing you to have to know what number to call and to do whatever you could get the information that you need and, AI can really help. And the other thing, I think that AI can help, and we've talked about this on the on previous episodes, and I keep coming back to the fact that you can transcribe and listening to calls and pick out nuances in conversations that won't necessarily logged as a complaint that somebody's made because they've got a disability. What won't necessarily come because somebody's made a booking for that. But in the conversation, there are indicators that detect things that will help you to understand your customer base, what's going on, the challenges they have, and how you can then build that into your insights, into your organisation that the marketing team can use, that the procurement team can access. when procurement are. negotiating contracts with suppliers, are they well informed on our customer base? So therefore that's translated into the conversations they're having. Yeah.

Iqbal: 36:40

just on that last point around, I think AI can play a key role in being able to join the dots together. We, we talked about this, I think offline as well, is how, do you get all of these areas of business? AI can collect that data, push that into other businesses. I think one of the interesting, Forrester did a recent paper on accessibility around ai and where it's lacking at the moment is it doesn't quite, we're not seeing tools built with accessibility in mind. The assumption is that. AI's powerful enough to be able to help with the use cases. You mentioned where you can speak to chat GPT, but we need, different ways of being able to engage with ai. So it's not just about speaking, it's not just about typing, but actually can we introduce more inputs into AI to be able to, drive more accessibility for, these other users? Yeah. Yeah.

Jerry Angrave: 37:29

I think, the point that you've both highlighted is really key about, again, understanding customers. But I think you, when we look at a customer experience program, we always encourage people to get out and spend time, with customers as they're experiencing. And I think that's so much more relevant with, with people who might have an accessibility need.'cause you can see the, body language, the unspoken, the, other, the head that goes down when they find out that, oh, actually I can't get in this entrance. I've gotta go round the back and use the. Yeah, the, industrial and and all that kind of stuff. And you see, and even people who are might just look at a retail store and go, do you know what, I'm not gonna go in there. No, it's too bright, it's too loud. Someone in the wheelchair. And I think, actually I could go in, but there's not enough room for me to turn around. Am I gonna get

Vinay: 38:23

trapped

Jerry Angrave: 38:23

by somebody in that

Vinay: 38:24

I remember Hollister, I think I read a study somewhere, they had that challenge'cause their stores are quite dark and they, the aisles were quite narrow. So I think they had some challenges like that. again, as well as going out and seeing what it's like for customers. It's going around your premises, your offices, and seeing it's what, it's like for colleagues. how many times have you been to a place where, just the place where you make a cup of tea, the work top is at the same level for everybody. The kettle's out of reach. If you're in a wheelchair, if you can't access that, and I know it's not always about wheelchairs or if there isn't, assistance for you to be able to hold onto something or, maybe it's painted the wrong color, whatever it might be. we, how are we thinking about that internal design as well? People that come into work, you often faced with turnstiles and gates and having to wait for a lift. And there's also that bit about. I think you, you touched on it earlier on when we were talking about disruption is that, when you get onto a train, you've gotta wait for a ramp to be put down. People are looking at you get off at New Street in Birmingham and people are crowding around the doors waiting to get on and there's no second thought given to, hang on, somebody might be coming off, they might need some assistance or getting on and you've got poor trained staff trying to push people out the way and put the ramp down. so there's, always like that kind of commotion and I guess we just, it's human nature. You see the world from your own perspective, so you operate from your own perspective, but the more that we can do to help raise that awareness, that's got to be a good thing.

Jerry Angrave: 39:55

and I think a lot of it is. driven by the leadership team and the, that clarity of the brand, if you like, how is that brand gonna show up? and okay, if you are promising the world that you'll give friendliest welcome, the warmest welcome, whatever it might be, then that's a really good example. Okay, if someone's traveling with a wheelchair, we know there's gonna be a problem at Birmingham New Street only credit. So how are we gonna mitigate that? How might we make that part of the journey for that customer?

Vinay: 40:28

Yeah,

Jerry Angrave: 40:28

dignified, personal, not, a cause of anxiety or feeling like you're putting everybody else out and you're a real inconvenience. it shouldn't be like that. So I think a lot of it comes down from the very top.

Vinay: 40:41

it does. Sorry Jerry, you just reminded me of an example I saw recently. a few weeks ago when we had the storm, which was, which affected the south of which Wales in the south of the country a lot. I remember being at the station the following morning at Bristol Parkway trying to get out into Birmingham and we were trying to get on a train and there was a lady who was in a wheelchair and the member of staff was waiting with her with the ramp and 30 seconds before the train was doing, they did a, platform change announcement. And the, and you can imagine that there's already disruptions of the platform is full of people, there's one member of staff, everyone's running to get onto the other platform, which is now two platforms away, running downstairs going. And this poor lady who was in a wheelchair has left there without a member of staff She's got no chance.

Iqbal: 41:29

No way.

Vinay: 41:29

Of getting on that train, and yet somebody must have known that was about to happen. Yeah. That communication to the individual that was with that customer Could have been better. And actually, did you really need to change the platform? could something else have been done that? Anyway, I just think there were so many examples. I

Jerry Angrave: 41:51

think tho those kind of. Edge cases or stretch cases are really important. Yeah.'cause they do show where there's a flaw in the system and the process and the experience Today. And, the question should be, okay, how might that not have happened? Or, and know a lot of airlines, rail companies, they're all have disruption is how it's managed and how it's recovered. And, and so again, use, is there a way of using technology to just get that message to that person or the people they're traveling with to say, look, in about 30 seconds, we're gonna put an announcement up. But it, goes back to that organisational culture. Yeah. Our on time operations. So much more important than Yeah. One person's, yeah. Journey, experience, dignity and that Yeah. I think

Iqbal: 42:40

we spoke, offline around, is it because the priority is to serve the majority whilst we know one in four have a need, but that one in four has a very different need, From, the other. So it's very difficult to even, categorise that one in four, one issue. Those are multitude of, needs that these people have. Therefore, you are always gonna revert to the majority and therefore this problem will always exist. whilst we will continue to make progress, it's impossible to meet

Jerry Angrave: 43:12

everybody's

Iqbal: 43:13

needs. Yeah.

Jerry Angrave: 43:14

And, I think there's also an uncomfortable truth as well. everyone's operating in a very commercial environment.

Iqbal: 43:19

Yeah.

Jerry Angrave: 43:20

And at some point there might be a, an intentional experience that says, in these circumstances, this should happen. This should be the communication, these should be the behaviours of our frontline agents. But somewhere along the line, somebody says, yeah, that's gonna cost. Yeah. If we want to put two people on that platform at Bristol Parkway, that's gonna have a cost.

Speaker: 43:41

And

Jerry Angrave: 43:42

unless that organisation is in the right mindset and, really committed to their brand promise.

Vinay: 43:48

It

Jerry Angrave: 43:49

depends who's got the loudest voice around that top table. Yeah. To, to a degree.

Vinay: 43:52

I, saw a great video from my good friend, Vimmel Rai, who lives out in Dubai, is also in the aviation space. I dunno if you've come across Yeah. and he did this great video when he was talking about the recent disruption in India with Indigo Airlines. And he talked about how you have CX is often you have the CX operators, people that are operational, and then you have the delighters and they split camps. So you have the very much the all about the delivery, the excellence, the do it at lowest cost possible operational mindset, and then people that will know it's about delighting customers and they're falsely separated, but they should be one and the same. the bit that's missing is, that leadership in the organisation to drive that culture. And when things like this happen, how that shows up is where the cracks are. Your systems, your process or whatever, because no technology is gonna fix the empathy. I'm paraphrasing them or 300, angry customers at an airport is not gonna be fixed by AI or some digital thing. It's gonna be fixed by a human. But that human needs to be empowered and able to do the right things in order to solve it. and have

Iqbal: 44:59

the tools and the information at hand. So it still comes back to technology in a sense. You just gotta communicate that information to the right people at the

Vinay: 45:06

time. But technology is the enabler. It's not the answer. You still need the wraparound culture for people to use the technology in order to do the right things. And we could real, we could rely on the goodwill of organisations to do That and some will. But there are legal implications and legal risks here. And I'm just, there was a couple doing some research for the show today, like Pizza Hut. A blind customer couldn't use their app. They were taken to the

Iqbal: 45:31

Court. That was Domino's Pizza, by the way.

Vinay: 45:33

Pizza, sorry, not pizza. Sorry. Correction. Not Pizza Hut. Domino's Pizza. were taken to court. United Airlines, wheelchair damage leading to a customer, suffering harm. And there's a fe federal investigation going on. American Airlines, a record$50 million penalty for repeatedly, failing on accessibility. and then you've got the Equality Act, and then there's an EU accessibility Act coming. So you've got all of these, legal frameworks coming in. So if, organisations don't look at it through a culture, let's do the right thing for the customer perspective. Their hand is going to be forced by regulation, by legislation.

Jerry Angrave: 46:15

Yeah. And in a perfect world, we wouldn't need that legislation regulation. but it is what it is, if you like. And I think, see, I think that's great. I think, having the regulatory frameworks really helps it become a strategic priority within the organisation. I think, there's still a long way to go as well, because there are certain markets where, there are, if you like, no financial penalties, certainly in, in the UK and the eu, and. So the if you are cynical, you could say, actually, because somebody knows that we're not gonna get fined. Yeah. Then it's priority. Yeah. it's yeah, it's not, the same priority, which is, it's completely wrong, but is the reality of the situation. So I think where organisations are, encouraged, nurtured to, to, do the right thing, that, that's great. But I think the regulatory framework has to be, par with the, commercial Yeah. Priorities as well. Yeah.

Iqbal: 47:16

I think it is what from experience when it comes to these types of regulations, it becomes a very much a tick box exercise. So you do the absolute minimum that you need to

Vinay: 47:25

Yeah.

Iqbal: 47:26

to meet

Vinay: 47:26

regulation,

Iqbal: 47:27

to, meet that regulation. And then that's, I guess there's a danger of that as well.

Jerry Angrave: 47:30

Yeah. I think so. I, have to say the regulatory guidance is, incredibly useful for a lot of organisations who are like, okay, where do we start? How do we do this? What, should we be considering? the guidance and the frameworks that the regulators offer. is, invaluable. but then it's okay, What, happens if we, don't adhere to these? yeah. is it like having an off offset inspection or is it like having, you would want it to be more the Michelin star thing, so actually you don't get penalised for it. You get rewarded and heralded and championed and celebrated for doing the right thing.

Vinay: 48:07

we've, concentrated on various parts of the journey, but accessibility appears in every single point of the journey. From your branding, your advertising, your visual representation of how your customers are. If customers cannot see themselves in your story, they don't engage with you. And, that's part of accessibility to the way they contact you. Your website, your app, your store, your after sell support, the hoops they've gotta jump to return an item. All of the touch points along that. And then how that bleeds into back office in terms of procurement and finance. And it's everywhere. Right now. You turn it on its head and say, look back to the beginning of the conversation. The size of the prize to use a phrase is big. Somebody's gonna get that right. organisations are, we've got infinite choice. We've got so much, access to services across the world. Yet people coming up with these experiences where they can't do, somebody's gonna get that right and when they get it right, what a great point of different differentiation, can't even get the word out. What a great point of difference. We often look for that. What's our competing factor? What's the USP and when somebody gets it right, and I've been lucky enough to see some great innovation over the years of people that have done things, getting it right. There was, there was a, when I ran the innovation lab, there was a coach or a travel company called Limitless, that really focused on travel for people that had, mobility challenges. And they created a way that people could, travel with multiple wheelchairs in one go, not just one wheelchair at a time. They put on specific holidays and tours all catered around that group of people. Now this is going back seven or eight years, but since then, there must be other people who have, and you were talking about using voice apps. I don't have that I know of any disabilities or challenges, but bloody hell do, I love talking to chat GPT and to my iPhone and stuff instead of having to type, like it's just an inconvenience to type now. So I use those features, but they're there to be leveraged to improve access. Yeah.

Jerry Angrave: 50:18

And you say you don't have any disabilities. It's but we all have needs. Yes. We all need to be able to communicate. Yes. Some people do it in different ways. Yeah. Some people understand the world in different ways. Some people interpret what's going on in in different ways. And I think that's The, the, real challenge and the beauty of it as well. Thankfully, we're all, different. what you made me think of was where, who gets it right in terms of what you, the person who wins and wins out is, and a couple of examples, spring to mind. One is, if not the Special Olympics So we have the Olympics, we have the Paralympics. There's also the Special Olympics for Neurodivergent people. and it is just phenomenally powerful to and inspirational to see those, people competing and taking part. but there's also, again, on a, sporting level, something my, son took part in was, it's a series called the Superhero Triathlon. It's basically, and it's basically, sponsored by Marvel Comics and that sort of stuff. Yeah, they're superheroes and it's a triathlon, but basically anything goes. So for the swim, it was done down at, Eaton Dorney in, in the UK where they had the Olympic rowing contest. and the swim is only a hundred meters, but, Charlie didn't have to swim He gets towed in a dinghy. So I swim with my daughter or my brother-in-law. we tow him. So that's his swim. He does the dinghy when it comes to the bike. he's, Charlie rides a three wheeled, trike. So he does that and he's just very happy on his own. Yeah. And then when it comes to the run. He just stays on his bike. Yeah. But if you want to get a fireman's lift,'cause you can't work or, so anything, if you, if it's gonna take you three quarters of an hour to do the a hundred meters, that's absolutely fine. You do it at your pace your way. And what's so empowering about that event is it just says there are no barriers. Yeah. And it really this is what it is, stripped down. There are no barriers. Everybody can do what they want in, that context. And it is quite, you come away from events like that thinking actually, now I can see barriers. everywhere. Yeah.'cause if I'm trying to operate my keyboard, but what happens if I haven't got, use of my hands? Or what happens if I haven't got V vision? How do, I navigate the world then it is just so Yeah. I think you're right. so it it is a really long-winded answer, but I think there are Yeah. To the people who get it right, it's, they, will be inspirational as well as successful.

Vinay: 52:45

Yes. totally agree. I it comes back to like why I do any of the work that I do. It's all about human enrichment. It's about how do you enrich the experience that people have of life through the things that they do. Whether that's the experience of taking part in an event, dealing with a brand, doing the things that they do. That's the kind of common thread. Yeah.

Iqbal: 53:04

so I think I just, I guess our last segment of this session, is all about what good looks like. it'd be great to maybe get some examples of what a blueprint for leaders should, be. We talked about, these initiatives starting at a leadership level, but when it comes to, seeing some examples of, again, what good looks like, it would be great if you could share some of those, whether it comes to testing journeys with rural users, spending time with the, with the types of people that you wanna try and serve. any thoughts around that? Yeah,

Jerry Angrave: 53:40

and, that's a lot of it, to be honest. if you're looking for a place to start, then. talk to people who have the lived experience themselves follow their journey, Yes. It's one thing to, they say walk in another per person's shoes and, okay, you can try a wheelchair, but there's nothing like, go that person that's in the wheelchair and, see it and, get them to give a running commentary on what they're thinking, seeing, feeling, that kind of stuff. So I think just what good looks is just an open-mindedness, I think of the particularly the leadership team, that will say, this is important to us as an organisation'cause it's important to our customers and therefore it's important to us. build and then formalising, if you like, that communication with, with people with lived experience. So having a, cohort of people to go to and say, we're thinking of doing this. How should we approach it? What should we be looking out for? but also, hopefully in that process you'd have your employees who have lived experience as well. So embracing them, getting them involved, and participating in that whole process. training is another area where, the, good companies have really good training and often that is delivered by people with lived experience. so what are the behaviours that you want to them to exemplify? How do you interact with somebody who is maybe neurodivergent, but really anxious or, almost on the edge of having a, an epileptic fit or whatever it may be. Yeah. How do you interact with those? So give your people the training and the headroom, if you like to say. Actually, it's okay actually with this person I need to spend, I'm gonna have to spend 10 minutes with this person That's okay. Because I'm not measured on how quickly I can process somebody. I'm measured on the dignity that person has with the, experience. So I, I think the training is really important. and communication and raising awareness about, and celebrating the good things that happen as well. Yeah, it's, yeah, I think that's the

Iqbal: 55:47

key thing. I think that's the missing piece for me that I find whether it's as, as an employee in an organisation or as a customer or, somebody as, like I said with my son, it's after go and seek out this information. And I think that's, always the, so that communication part I think is so key

Jerry Angrave: 56:04

to that. Yeah. Because if you book a, a ticket at a festival, music festival, right? there's some fantastic experiences that are happening. Again, cinemas, you mentioned the, making time in a, banking hall. Yeah. You, so there's, yeah, there's lots of that, but it's I, wouldn't say look at what's going on to steal the, those concepts, but steal the principles behind it and think how did they get to that point? what's the internal thinking, culture behaviours that, that gets to that point?

Vinay: 56:32

Yeah. I completely agree with all of those. And I think in that last point about stealing people's other ideas, it's, also looking outside your industry. I think too often we are Too often teams can become blinkered about just looking within the industry they operate. But when you look outside and you see the way that people apply, maybe the same technologies you already have, but in a novel way to deal with the problem, or a challenge or an issue, or an accessibility need or an inclusion need, whatever the thing might be, that inspires you to think about what you already have and go at you, we could do this way, we could do that way. So the answers are always there. It's about looking beyond, I call it breaking borders, looking beyond your borders and, getting out and going and seeing things. So I think, yeah, really powerful stuff. But it does start with very much that, leadership conversation. getting out there and seeing things and in that leadership conversation constantly making sure that this is part of the conversation. there's that famous Amazon story in't there about how there's always an empty chair left in the room, and I turn to it and say, what would the customer say? what if it wasn't a chair? what if it was a wheelchair? What if it was a, mobility scooter? Or what if it was, something that represented somebody that has ADHD? Because at the moment when you think, what would the customer say? You are almost still falling to going, it's a customer who could sit in that chair and maybe look like how we all look or operate, how we all look. Your, to, to your point about walking in the customer's shoes, I've said often that the trouble with that is that you've gotta take your own shoes off first

Jerry Angrave: 58:04

Yeah.

Vinay: 58:04

and people aren't able to do that. So you can, you could sit in a wheelchair, but you're never gonna get the wheelchair.

Jerry Angrave: 58:10

no. And I think It, goes full circle in a way to, your very start, first point at the start with brand. it's kind of, it comes from the leadership and it's, but it's not just about the commercial value that it brings. There's a lot of brand. equity that it's gonna generate. And also employee pride as well. Yeah. You can see it in organisations that get it. These people are really proud to, to give that

Vinay: 58:36

They absolutely are. And the brand equity thing, we haven't even touched on that, but there's so much research that we've talked about, generations looking at brands and aligning with their values and the way that they are. Yeah. This is, part of that mix, it's part of the marketing mix. Yeah. and so it shouldn't be something separate from that. Okay. Look, final reflections. We're at, we're out of time. Jerry, one belief that leaders need to drop in order to move forward. Do you think, is there a, is there something that you would, if you could only have 30 seconds with a leader, what would you say to them?

Jerry Angrave: 59:06

I'd say reach out to people with lived experience and really understand their world and what it's like for them to interact with your brand.

Vinay: 59:16

Yeah.

Iqbal: 59:18

Yeah. and I think just, you, we touched on this. I think it's, creating a brand that, emphasises the point around inclusivity and, and, we, talked about people with disabilities, but this is about meeting the needs of everybody because everybody has different needs. And, I think once you can create that. Type of culture within an organisation, then you, end up with a brand that people wanna not just interact with, engage with, but also work for as well. And, I think that's, been very insightful, Jerry, speaking to you today and learned a hell of a lot around this subject.

Jerry Angrave: 59:54

Thank you. it is been great to, to talk about it with you guys. thank you for inviting me and yeah, it's, to get it right is phenomenal. it's gotta fit in with all the operational requirements of the business. But yeah, to get it right, you can make a real difference to somebody's life.

Vinay: 1:00:09

So Jerry, just one, one final thing. If people want to get in touch with you to talk to you more about it, if they've been inspired by something they've heard today and wanna really explore getting this right in their organisation, how can they get hold of you? What's the, best way, best?

Jerry Angrave: 1:00:20

yeah, Jerry Angrave, on LinkedIn, it is probably the easiest way, all through Empathise website. But yeah, probably LinkedIn is the easiest way. So yeah, if anybody has any questions, yeah, absolutely.

Vinay: 1:00:30

Brilliant. we'll put the link in the description so people will be able to get hold of it. I hope you've enjoyed that episode. If you found something in it that inspires you to think differently, please do us a favor and, subscribe so you'll get the alert for the next episode. It might seem like a small thing to you, but it really does help us to reach more people and share more of this great content. as I said, breaking the blueprint was all about expanding the conversation, getting more people involved in thinking through the lens of the customer to improve services, and really enrich the experience that we have of the things that we do in life. Until the next episode, take care. Goodbye.