Breaking the Blueprint

How Physical Space Shapes What Your Customers Think

• Vinay Parmar & Iqbal Javaid • Season 2 • Episode 3

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customer experience, data insights, and retail innovation. In this episode of Breaking the Blueprint, hosts Vinay Parmar and Iqbal Javaid sit down with Matt Garner, co-founder of Ethos Farm and a CX expert who's transformed airports, airlines, and major retail spaces across the globe.

Matt takes us behind the scenes of airport design and operations, revealing how data-driven decisions, AI, and physical space can influence everything from your shopping habits to your perception of an entire brand. Whether you’re a business traveller, a frequent flyer, or someone fascinated by customer behaviour, you’ll gain eye-opening insights into the invisible forces shaping your journey.

We discuss how major brands like Adidas, Apple, and even global airports like Singapore and Hamad International create seamless, engaging experiences that keep customers coming back. You'll learn why airports are competing for your time and money, how AI is revolutionising security and service, and why some airports are failing while others thrive.

Don't miss this fascinating deep dive into the world of customer experience, tech innovation, and behavioural psychology.

Special thanks to our sponsors, NovelVox for supporting this episode – find out more at https://link.javelincontent.com/btb_youtube 

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Vinay on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vinayparmar/
Iqbal on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/iqbal-javaid/
Matt Garner on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mathew-garner-833b2bb2
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customer experience strategy for executives
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 employee experience and CX
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 customer loyalty through service design

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Vinay:

Welcome everybody to episode three of Breaking the Blueprint with me, Vinay Parmar my co-host.

Iqbal:

Iqbal Javaid. Glad to be here today.

Vinay:

Yeah. Yeah. And there's more than two of us here today, and we'll reveal who the person in corner in second. But just, quick hello to Iqbal, what have you been up to since we last got together? what's been happening in your world? Oh,

Iqbal:

it, feels like it's. since the last one we've done. So it's, A On the weather been crazy. Yeah. been getting hot and cold. And so that's not been too good. But, outside. that, it's been an interesting few weeks, working with lots of organizations. Yeah. around cx. Yeah. How about yourself?

Vinay:

Yeah, I've seen your LinkedIn. You've been busy. I, also had, weather experiences, but mine was. of self-inflicted. You know, I was, I came from 30 degree heat in Dubai, Oh yeah. came back, landed in six degree heat. That was a, you know, what a shock to the system that was coming back from So I've been out there for a couple of weeks and I'll share more about that, in future episodes. And, yeah, it's, again, busy. Couple of weeks. I was, doing keynote for, Cisco at their innovation tour. And, maybe I'm the guy on this podcast that always has the technology fails, right? You know, you being the technologist, it wouldn't make sense if you had them. So yesterday, there I am, I've set my camera up and got it all ready to record because I didn't have a, video guy, so I just wanted to record some material my own purposes. Set the camera up, tested it, had a bit all remote mic, all the sound was working. And as they announced me on, I hit the record button, went up, did 45 minutes. It was brilliant. Got really great feedback. The senior vice president standing on stage saying it was a brilliant keynote, went back to check the footage. I'd only recorded it in bloody time lapse.

Iqbal:

I'll tell you what, And for that reason, I've kept you away from the tech today because I wanna make sure this podcast gets recorded. So look, I feel for you, but that is

Vinay:

not my worst epic fail. I'll share a very quick one. so my wife's a beautician, right? And, we a calendar. And she used to put all her appointments in the calendar, and this is before I was an employee, so I was using my own device at work and I was at NA Express. I was in the boardroom. I'm presenting to the exec and the CEO sitting in the room and halfway through the presentation pops the calendar invite, the. acts. 12 o'clock. Try explaining that to your CEO. Anyway, we can go on for hours. So she, reveal who are, who the special business room is. So this is, Matt, Garner, who's our very first guest on the podcast. Matt is the founder of Ethos, ethos Farm.

Matt:

Yep.

Vinay:

Co-founder

Matt:

of

Vinay:

Ethos Farm. Yeah. Farm. Matt and I met. God many years ago, and he's been doing some amazing stuff. Matt, over to you. Give us an What do you tell the people who are listening, watching? What do you do and, a bit about yourself.

Matt:

Yeah, no problem at all. Well, look, thanks both for, having me on and, having me. The, first person, first guest on the podcast. So I'm, kind of super, super lucky and, and super. privileged to, to be here. So thank you very much for having me on. as Vinne says, I'm a co-founder of, Ethos Farm. We set the company up, gosh, about eight years ago now. really focusing on customer and employee experience. so, the, there's a very long version, which will take me about an hour explain, but I'll do it the short version for all of your listeners. But we, really have four verticals to our business. We have a CX consultancy, so we work with brands across the world to design, build, and deliver. customer experience strategies and employee experience strategies, being really clear about your vision, what you your service standards to be, and then importantly, how do you bring that to life?'cause it's all well and good having a shiny document, but unless you can bring it to life, then then it's not really gonna go So we've got a CX division, we have a learning and development division where we can design in-house, we can design, build, and deliver any kind of training for your frontline teams to make them the best versions of themselves. Importantly, our third division, which I'll talk about quite a bit today, is all around people solutions. So in-house, we recruit, train, and manage guest experience ambassadors for multiple brands internationally. so we do that for brands like Westward Shopping Centers, Power Station, Heathrow Airport, LaGuardia Terminal B, which has just been rated as one of the best airports, best airport terminals in the world. and so there we have real experience of building the rosters, ensuring our people are in the right place at the right time, that they've got the right technology. and that's hugely important to some of the conversation that I'm gonna be talking you about today. And then our fourth division is all around data. So we now have, a data team that we've, everyone's got a thirst for data at the moment and we now have an in-house data team that are building, a platform allowing us to, gather. Insights for our clients that they've never been to see before. So that they can continuously improve their CX So, four division CX consultancy, l and d. Staffing solutions and data. That's, yeah, that's what we are. We are now the 12th, fastest growing company in the uk. On the Sunday times, 100. Yeah. And, to say it's been a crazy ride, especially when you throw Covid into all of that as well is, is an understatement. So we've had good times, we've had bad times, and, yeah, we're, we're in a pretty good place now,

Iqbal:

Now a special mention for the sponsor of this podcast, NovelVox. If you're looking to empower your generative AI with your data and your intents, NovelVox can help deliver end to end contextual services by integrating your applications with generative AI. This will help you deliver personalized support and natural interactions tailored to your customers needs. Essentially, NovelVox represents the glue between your applications, data, and AI. If you're interested in learning more, get in touch directly or contact us via our website Evolved.Cx.

Vinay:

And I think we first connected, I think it was on, it was on, peoples, I think you were doing project with Bacardi, if I remember right. it was one of those brands. It was one of the Diageo brands I think maybe, yeah. Yeah. In the early

Matt:

days we did a, we still do a lot of work with travel retail, and we've supported those, Bacardi, you know, across learning and development people solutions and, from a perspective as well, so. so. yeah. What's great about what we do is that we're not wedded to one industry. So, and, then we can cross-fertilize best practice from multiple different industries. See what's working well in travel retail or in high street retail, and then look at aviation and look at how we can improve there. And I think that's. The real value add that kind of we bring to our, a lot of our clients is they wanna understand what good looks like elsewhere. Yeah. and then factor that into their thing.

Iqbal:

Yeah. And Ultimately, look, as consumers, we, whether we're traveling or going to a retail store, we behave the same way. So I think can a lot those learnings. I, and I think this is right for today's topic, it's been. Good to have you with that experience coming here, talking to us about the physical customer experience. In the last couple of episodes we've talked about digital experiences, ai, but I think what's particularly post pandemic, a lot's changed around, the physical experience and we'd like to kind of touch on, how do we bring these two worlds together, the physical and digital together, and, you know, why is that, so important today? What, what are you experiencing particularly around airports? I mean, I love a story. There's so many stories to tell around airports themselves, right? But sometimes I can't understand the rationale behind the decisions that they make, or, you know, when it comes to taking you down a particular journey, within an airport. So, yeah, I would love to hear more from you around. Yeah. You know how you are helping, the likes of airports.

Vinay:

Yeah. Yeah. Look forward to it. Yeah. Yeah. So look, I mean, physical experiences or digital as they call physical digital put together, you know, it's not a new phenomenon. I mean, I think I first, I think I first came more consciously aware of the power of space and the physical. I think I started to see it when dealerships start to move from the old school, you turn up to dealership. All the are, all the cars are on the forecourt, There's a salesman behind the desk, they come out see you. And it, I think they kind of got. the feeling that, particularly for, female customers or customers who weren't comfortable with cars, they found it quite an intimidating place to be. So they started to model their dealerships more on retail stores. So now you go in and there's a barista in there and it's open space and it's, you know, floor to ceiling windows and the cars are displayed in a certain way. And I think that's when I first came, became aware of it, and then it. Through a couple of conferences that I've hosted and some of the other brands I spoke So I remember Adidas doing an amazing presentation. He was actually at the Trump Hotel in Scotland. Don't hate me for that. they were presenting about what their physical experience is, and they were about how they use their store. Particularly ones in London as, coworking, where they bring sort of fashion people together, coworkers together. This is not just about. about. The products and what they're selling, but it's also about the experience they have in that store. That kind of links to the brand as well. So I think you've got kind of different things and I suppose the other one, I think Apple, in their first three years of having retail stores grossed a billion dollars in sales. And if you look at the layout of their store is all predicated touch. Feel like the product, once it's in your hand, you know, part of that experience. So. Just you know, or three little examples of where I've seen that kind thing. But Matt, you you've, spent time with airport in retail. Where have you seen or you know. Tell us about your experience around physical spaces and stuff and your views are and it, and, maybe share a couple of examples of where you've seen it work really well and the impact it's made.

Matt:

Yeah, absolutely. So, so I think if, we look at airports as an example, so prior to setting up Ethos Farm I'd been in aviation probably for about. 15 years. and when you look at an airport. and I'm making a massive assumption here that all your listeners and viewers have been to an airport. On average. Yeah. the, uk, the average UK person takes about two return flights a year on average and let alone business So, I think we've probably, it's a safe assumption that we've all been through airports, we've all experienced some really good things and we've. Probably all experience some really bad things as well. And, my goodness does, the media take attention to it when it goes wrong? You know that, will hit headline news really You get a, huge snowstorm, massive disruption, and flights not being able to take off, that won't stay private. That will be, headline news in, So, I think. There's always been quite an, interest from the public as to what goes on in airports. And, as I say, when things go right, they go really well. And when they go wrong, they go terribly wrong really quickly. and that's because there's such complex environments that ultimately, and one of the most unique things is that an airport operator does not own all parts of the custom journey. Exactly. Right. A lot of those touch points. Our are third party run. And so it's quite unlike any other business operation where you can have your hand around everything and say, okay, I can control from the minute that you decide to book a holiday through to the minute that you land back in the uk. I can control all of it. Airports can control a lot of it, but actually in a lot of cases. It's subcontracted to third parties. But here's the rub. Passengers don't care.

Vinay:

Yeah.

Matt:

They do not care that if border force, talk to them rudely, they don't necessarily see that as border force. They see that as the airport. That's the airport treating me really poorly. and so what airports have is this unique ecosystem, but they own the asset. And so one of the major factors that they can do to improve the end-to-end customer experience is to make that asset, that physical experience the best that it possibly can be. But again. You know, that's a huge amount of money and a huge amount of investment potentially need is needed to do that. And, in a lot of cases, you know, especially when you look at certain terminals in the uk, some of them are built in the sixties and are in desperate need for, redevelopment. And so really what airports are trying their best to do is to look at the end-to-end experience, combine that with digital. Also combine it with data. We. A lot of what we are seeing is. A massive thirst in the industry for better data, because that can inform your decisions. I mean, that's ubiquitous for every industry, I think. but then looking at how you can make that physical experience as frictionless as possible by combining digital and physical together. Yeah. and you're seeing that and you will see it over the 24 months. You're seeing, next gen security coming in, which is a great example of new technology. Mixed with a physical space. So that's gonna mean that instead of taking all your liquids and your laptops out the bag, you're gonna be able to keep a lot of that in your bag, which is gonna hopefully improve process speed, which is gonna make the trip through security a lot easier and quicker. That's a really good example where digital and physical are coming together to, to make that. What is usually the most stressful pinch point of the end-to-end experience is going through security, and that's measured by multiple different, factors. That's gonna become much more frictionless is the plan. Yeah. I'm sure there's gonna be some challenges, Yeah.

Iqbal:

And I think with airports. As you said, it's, the beginning of your holiday or your journey. Yeah. And if that doesn't start off well, it just, it starts to impact the rest of your holiday. Yeah. So I think that's why there's so much pressure on airports to get it Right. And just going back to your point around airports being of interest. docuseries, there's border force, there, there's all sorts of shows on tv. People are really interested. to see what, it's like. Well

Vinay:

it's a universal experience, isn't it? Matt Matt's right. Most people watching and listening to this will have had some experience of an airport, whether recent, when there were a child or, whatever. And I think it's interesting as well,'cause often in travel we talk about the first and last mile being the kind of the key moments that people remember. And I think with the airport, you're absolutely right, you know. you arrive there when your holiday begins, the moment you hit the airport, and actually when you come back, you know, I often hit people when you're coming from a holiday, particularly when people checked bags in, when you're waiting at that carousel for your bag to come through. So you could have a great flight, it could be a really good experience. Suddenly your land and you're waiting for your bags and you've got that anxiety. A, is your bag going to be there? And B, it's taking ages. That can also, impact on that. And I think also interestingly, just as a bit of a segue, you know, you were talking about the physical, side and the changes in security and Birmingham Airport has just undergone, we're still undergoing a huge amount of change and they took a lot of flack for how that was done. there were pictures of cues outside. I mean, I be honest, I flew during that period I didn't really an issue. I got through in and out pretty quickly, so I never really experienced what they were being shown on social media, but they were getting a lot of flack for, you know, what's going on. cues are outside and people taking pictures on social media massive long cues. And look, I don't work for them. I don't know them. I'm not in their organization, but my external observation is, what I felt like was missing, was just that from the customer's perspective. Better signage, better expectation setting. Like it's always in that kind of communication piece. But I don't, wanna take us off track, but I, actually, it was just a thought, you know, in terms of, you just trigger a thought when you were about that and I, guess the ongoing thing is that when you are undergoing those works and things are happening in space, that's part of the experience. you've gotta think about Yeah. how you set the expectation for customers.

Iqbal:

And I think one of the things that I'd love to kind of, hear from you on Matt, is. how in delivering, a personalized experience is, easy to do through digital means, like, you know, a lot of organizations are able to deliver that personalized experience. And talked about data, There must be data on the passengers, on the people that are traveling. How do you, how can you use that data to deliver a bit more of a personalized experience? Because for me, where as passengers are seen as numbers in an airport, right? When you're walking through, nobody knows who you are. you don't. Well, it feels that way anyway. Right? The way you're treated, you are literally treated as a number. as you walk through that. So just there's any, work being done around being able more of a personal

Matt:

Yeah, I think that's a great question and I can assure you, having worked with multiple airports, which we do, you're not just a number, you know, as much as that might feel like it, and again, I'm sure your viewers probably share that, that thought, but, I guess the first insight is that airports, unlike a lot of industries, have a very unique service quality, a thing called a SQ that most airports sign up to. Not all but most. And when I say most, I mean in the world, not just in the uk A SQ, some of your listeners would've had, it is a survey. That asks you to rate every single customer touchpoint that you've had an interaction with. Out of five, you score out of five, and so most airports are subscribed to those surveys and, then get the, results as well have got a real unique insight to be able to say, okay, across every single customer touchpoint, this is how we score. Right From the moment that I arrive in car parking all the way through to when I get my bags back and when I come back into the UK at the baggage carousel. Every single customer touchpoint is benchmark at most airports internationally. That's then published and you can see where you rank against other airports of a comparable size. So that's the, first Yeah. So, so they get huge amount of intel and data from doing that, and they can see where they fall down versus their counterparts. And I think if you are are listening to this podcast and you want to understand. Not just about airports, but how you can take that. I think benchmarking is hugely important. If you can gather some sort of benchmarking data that really tells you how you compare to your competitors, I think that's massively useful. Most airports will use that as some of their investment decision criteria, so say, okay, we are massively falling down in security. Our ASQ dropped down to 3.1. We should be at 4.5 or something like that. Everyone else in our peer group is at 4.2. We wanna a lot higher. that will trigger some investment. Invariably, that's the first bit. The second bit is that all of us travel through under different personas. So I traveled through a major UK airport two weeks ago as a family. I was there with my family going on holiday. My wants and needs are very different when I'm with my family than they will be if I'm just traveling on my own as a So, so, and airports do tailor that, or a lot of good airports, if they're doing it well, they will tailor for So the good airports will have. Great spaces, air side, for families to relax. They might have soft play areas. They'll certainly have a great restaurant offering where I can take the family, where they can do food for, all of us, the cater, for all of us, vice versa. The ones that are really, good for business travelers or have the lounge, they'll have the, high-end retail potentially, and, all of the other good stuff that that you kind of expect as you're going through. So my. Wants and requirements as a passenger out of the physical experience change dramatically depending on the type of journey I'm going on. If I'm on business, I just want get through As quickly as possible. Yeah, I wanna get to my gate. I don't wanna muck I probably left it quite late'cause I haven't got anyone else to worry about and I just get through the, journey. If I'm with my family, we're probably likely to get there considerably. Earlier. airports are fantastic or the good airports are fantastic at creating brilliant air side retail spaces and you will have all seen good examples of that and bad examples of that. And I'll come onto that in a minute. Great. side, retail means I'm gonna get there early. It's a destination and I want to spend some money and have some downtime cause it's the start of my, yeah. Holiday. Excellent. Airports. Actually say, do you know what? It's not just about after security when you get into retail that you need to relax. It's before that the whole thing should be seamless. Yes. And, I remember talking to a an airport, a major airport, and they said, oh, you know, once you get through security. Then you have a decompression zone where where your holiday can really begin. And I said, this is wrong. So what you're saying is for the first third of the journey, it's awful. Then you can relax put your belt back on and, you know, and, feel kind of relaxed again, and then you can start enjoying yourself. Yeah. Ideally the ones that do it really, well are looking at the entire end to end-to-end journey and actually saying, you know, right from the beginning, it's an enjoyable experience. So

Vinay:

it's a really, it's a really interesting point that you make there because, I think, it does start from how the airport sees itself, whether it sees itself as just a. We're an airport and people come through us or whether it sees itself as a destination. And again, you are more of an expert in this than I am, but I just reading a little bit about Singapore Airport. They've got cinema in there, they've got, you know, trees in there, they've got plants in and, I, they, see it'cause they're a hub for so many connecting flights and people transition through. I think some of the thought process in their design is people are gonna spend dwell time here. and rather than sat in seats waiting around with their bags and blankets over them, there's stuff for them to do that makes the time. Pass. It's that, you know, Rory Sutherland's brilliant at articulating this. It's not about the weight, but it's the quality of the weight. Yeah. That drives the experience.

Matt:

Yeah, absolutely. I was in myself two weeks ago. As part of the trip I was on with my family. I. Another really good example is Hamad International Airport in so so they are very clear and going back to your earlier point Al, about, am I just a number? They're really clear about who their demographic is and who's traveling through. They know that, I think it's around about 80% of people traveling through the airport are just there to connect. Right. Only 20% are flying in and out. The rest, everyone flies in from the UK or wherever it is, and then bounces on to wherever they're going onto their connecting journey. And so I think it is a really interesting case study and I'd urge your listeners to look at it. they've gone. Okay. Well then in that case then what we want to do is create one of the best airports in, the world for a connecting journey. And, we want you to say, do you know what? I could have just an hour stopover in Qatar. I'm gonna choose to spend 12 hours there. they've just invested in incredible new facilities to, improve the weight. So as, you mentioned, Vinne, so, there's a Dior spa there, there's a Louis Vuitton cafe. there's there's these amazing. products, and experiences that people wanna stick on Instagram and say, you know, I've been here. It's a destination. It's an experience. Yeah. Rather than just your standard box standard

Iqbal:

kind of, it's part of your holiday, isn't it? I think what, that's what you're doing, you're adding to the value that you're getting out of your holiday Yeah. and you are getting a very unique experience that you probably can't get anywhere else. So that makes it, quite, competitive, doesn't it?

Vinay:

Yeah, I suppose it then gives a further challenge, doesn't it? Because. Then the airline to continue that on. From the point you come out of the airport, got through your gate, you're now on the airplane. Yeah. How does that, so, so, imagine you're at Qatar Airport. You've had a brilliant 12 hour layover. You've used a Louis Vuitton cafe, you've been in the Dior spa, and then your airline that's waiting for you to They kind of kettle you into the gate kind of onto the flight and suddenly some of that great feel factor. Can subside. Can subside. Right. And, although it's not the responsibility of the airline, I think it's, joining up that because all of those points together.

Iqbal:

Yeah. And, I think this is the thing that for me, is missing as, a, traveler is, I'd love for me to be able to plan my journey at the airport. So imagine having an app that, that knows me, knows that I'm going on a family holiday is making suggestions. It's, is finding the easiest path for me to get You know, the, airline I'm traveling with, it's joining the dots and all the way from parking your car to traveling in. in. All of these things are still very, it feels very separate. Yeah. Simply going back to your point, right, these are separate entities providing that service all in one place, but it's it feels as if there is a, surely there's gotta be a way to join those dots together for me as a passenger, to, so that I feel like I've got a bit of control that

Matt:

Yeah, I totally get it. And, one wants to. Download multiple apps, right? For, a journey. It you know, no one wants to get, okay, I've got the airline app and I've got the air. But, that is the reality at the moment because we are quite fragmented. We are in a situation where ultimately, as I said earlier on. The airport own asset. Then you've got separate brands for the airlines. Then you've got separate subcontractors in which case Ethos Pharma often one of those who are providing ambassadorial support or throughout the journey. yeah. When you go to check in, that's a totally different brand as well, and that could be subcontracted as well. Yeah. So you do have a fragmented ecosystem. there are some that are getting it right and, again, without, you know, I'm sounding like I'm creating a, an Hammer. But, there you've got the airport is owned by Qatar Airways, who also obviously own the airline. So in, in the example you gave Vinne, actually they do own a lot of that end to end journey. And what you're seeing there is that then they really do have control over an ecosystem. there. They really do. They are able to say, okay, you wanna go to the lounge, you want do click and collect on retail. You want to do, you know, all of these, peripheral things. Yeah, well let's it all in one place rather than it being fragmented. but in many cases. A lot of the UK airports, you know, they don't own the airline as well. yeah. It's a totally separate brand. You know, when I look at, for example, Ryanair They really want to get you through the airport as quickly as possible because actually they've, got a totally different. View on the world. They want you to spend on the aircraft. They don't want you to necessarily spend. That's true. true in the airport That is, so the less time you spend at the airport, better the better because then you'll, spend their due for, their, for their onboard retail

Vinay:

and, look to add further complexity. The other thing, I mean, you were talking about data. The other thing is about who owns the data. So if you've now got you, so you are an airline. you are an airline customer. That's the data between you and the airline. Yeah,

Matt:

exactly.

Vinay:

You're now in the airport, But for the apps to be able to do what you are talking about, they need to be able to share data.

Matt:

Yeah. Then

Vinay:

you've got the complications of geography. You've got, you know, EU data laws and Then you've got the non-EU to, and like yesterday we were talking just about the whole ethics of data in relation to ai, we got into data bit and you know, whilst the EU. has kind of seemed to have got their regulation piece in, in order, you know, releasing the latest legislation. It does rely on the rest of the world to play to the same rules in some way for it really, work and we know that not everyone's gonna play the. same rules. So then I. How does that happen? So I think that's, that added layer complexity. Then you've got The different, motivations of airlines and different parts of the airline. So, you know, interestingly, as you said, re the revenue for Ryan Air more important to them. It's better have that on the airline than you go and spend that wallet share in the But the airport, we were like, no, we want the wallet share. So you've got these compet kind of competing forces. So I think it is a, really complex. It is a, really complex. thing, and I think the, more and more you look at it, you know right how you described it the beginning of all the different parts and subcontractors, and then there's just layers and layers of more. Sometimes it makes me sit here and think it's a wonder they ever get it right. Well,

Matt:

interestingly, quote a COO a major airport their words were, every day is a miracle. Yeah. And that's not because they were It was because actually when you really look at everything that's going wrong on, on a, day-to-day basis. it's incredible that hundreds of thousands of people are, passing through, most of which pass through in great time. Have a great experience. and I think we all always focus, I think it's human nature. Yeah. But when things go wrong or get someone complain. That's what we focus about. Yeah. Was actually 99% of are going through and having a great experience, and take off broadly on time. Yeah. And all the rest of it.

Iqbal:

that's a good point. You mentioned, you the, way in which you are understanding the voice of the customer, like You're getting them to do surveys. I'm wondering whether there's. other techniques that can be used to try and see what's really going on with the, experience with, obviously there's a lot of video footage. You could potentially even listen in on conversation. Not suggesting that's, that that, should be done. But we see it in other forms of customer experience. Right. When, you are, when you're contacting a brand through other channels, not physical.

Vinay:

Yeah.

Iqbal:

Everything is monitored,

Vinay:

like calls are Exactly. All that kind of thing. So You,

Iqbal:

you've got, you instantly, you've got Yeah. The analytics you need to be able to make the right decisions. And I'm wondering, like I've had, some government agencies, talking to me about how do we know our people are engaging the citizen in the, in, in the way that we want them to.

Matt:

Yeah. And

Iqbal:

how do we monitor that?

Matt:

Yeah.

Iqbal:

and we've looked at ways of deploying mics and things like be able to pick up on conversations, understand the sentiment and things like that. Yeah.

Vinay:

And, in the last episode we talked about AI enabled cameras, looking at facial and body language and being able to analyze those kind of things and surface those data points.

Iqbal:

Yeah.

Vinay:

In real time. But it is interesting, isn't it, that when you call a contact center

Iqbal:

Yeah.

Vinay:

The call can be transcribed in real time. They can surface these touch points.

Iqbal:

And you accept it as a consumer? right? Yeah, but maybe in a physical environment and I'm working with a bank at the moment, and they're also. Looking at ways in which they can, leverage the technology that's already there, right? You've got the mics, you've got the cameras. How about really understanding how, what your customer's experiencing when they're there. I'm just wondering, I mean, obviously airport's a great example of that, but I'm wondering whether we could start to use more of this technology.

Matt:

Definitely, and I think you're seeing more and more that there's. There's advancements in technology that airports will be utilizing. I suppose there's a couple of differences between kind of the contact center analogy in airports usually when you dial up into a contact center, you're told, you know, for recording purposes, blah, blah, blah, this is gonna be recorded. You can't necessarily do that when you're in an airport. But there there are some great of how airports are using technology Most. Are using, PIR sensors and heat sensors to look at real time heat mapping. So a lot of good airports, who are doing it well, are able to get, okay, here's immigration at this time of day. It starts to go bright red in terms of heat. We, you know, obviously Mo every airport will track and flow their inbound passengers and their outbound passengers, so they'll know when their peaks are, right? Yeah. but it's a, but, here, lies some of the complexity with that as well. So a lot of that's driven actually by the airline model. So, for example, a, an airport that predominantly has low cost airlines, the low cost airline model. Means they do not make money unless that aircraft is in the air. So therefore, they all want to take off at what's called slot one first thing in the morning, which is why, as you probably know, as travelers, invariably, you end up getting up at three in the morning to get a flight at seven o'clock or something like that. Well, there's a reason for that that's because that's the earliest possible slot that aircraft could take off, Yeah. and that means they can do a number of in a day, right? And they can land, come back, land, come back, and they can essentially do maybe four or five sectors in a day. Well, what happens with that is that all of the low cost carriers wanna do that, which means you have huge spikes first thing in the morning. I Stanford is one of the busiest airports in Europe. Yeah. Between the hours of four wow. then invariably it will trough, and then it will pick back up again as you get the second wave, and then it will trough again. The problem with that is do you design for the peak or do you design for the average? Because if you design for peak, you would probably have to build twice as large a space. Whereas actually for a great big chunk of the day, it's not necessarily gonna get used and you don't need as many people and you don't need as many security lanes. Yeah. So it's always a balance. Heat mapping's really, useful in terms of technology because most airports will say, okay, we can see where we get congestion, and then we can kind of reprioritize how we go through, immigration, for example. Another really good example is now. And again, most people would've gone through it's the biometric scanners of immigration. Yeah. So immigration quite often used to get cues for hours and hours. I dunno if you remember, some

Iqbal:

countries still do. yeah,

Matt:

yeah. Very much so. Now, invariably, you know, quite a lot of the time, as long as you've got a passport that's valid to do it. Yeah. You'll be able, you've got, if you're chucking with kids, they're over, 10 years old in the uk you're able to. through that we did as we came back through Heath Row. within minutes. Yeah. In Dubai was

Vinay:

a breeze straight through. No

Matt:

issue. So, so there's a real good example where getting better at a pinch point that hurts, you know, customer scores. And actually people are flowing through quickly. I mentioned earlier on in terms of security. That will be the same at the other end the journey where. Hopefully you'll be able to get through. even quicker than before.

Iqbal:

it's actually the reason why my wife hates going on holiday. The security process. Like with, as a family, right? She, gets anxiety. Yeah. just thinking about going through security. Yeah. And it's a massive relief when you get through it and it's like, oh yeah. Yeah, Although, you know, especially when you've got you really young kids, you know, with milk bottles and things like that. So that, that can be quite, difficult.

Matt:

And and airports that are doing this really well, you'll that they've family lanes now. So they'll say, okay, do you know what actually Quite often the FA family's slow a lane down because they very, especially if you've got a push chair and stuff like that, right? That's gonna slow the whole process down. Why don't we, and you are stressed by it, so why don't we create a separate private lane for you guys to go through? You have a calmer experience. You also don't slow down the rest of the passengers as you're doing that.

Iqbal:

Yeah.

Matt:

and everybody's happy. So, but they're using data and they're using pinch point data to understand where you are really experiencing pain. Yeah. Security without doubt, every single time a survey is done is always the worst part of the journey.

Iqbal:

No, absolutely get it.

Vinay:

I know we talked a lot about airports. Yeah. But when I ran innovation at National express, we had, companies come and pitch to us about different problems to solve. them. I remember one of them was a, company that used anonymous data in your handset on your, mobile phone. So it track you all the way through. And a lot of shopping use it to see where customers go in the mall. It doesn't identify the customer as an individual. It's an an anonymized of data. It just knows that device And where device gone. And we were trying to repurpose thinking to go actually coach goes from here to London. Where do people go? And to our surprise, we found out there's a fair chunk of that travel into London to travel back out again. It's because the coach stops at Victoria. Yeah. They don't necessarily want to go to Victoria, but there's some data to support that. and, you know that retail model, they, that's where it came from. It was looking at, you know, when people, and if you look at a lot of shopping malls there, when you look, they're two ended. You've got luxury brands at one end. And as you go further down, you've got more of the kind of. Main mainstream budget brands, high

Iqbal:

street brands.

Vinay:

Yeah. So again, they look at where people dwell and where they start when they finish off. And so have that whole movement and flow of people in there. And I suppose just the other thing, again, because it's a recent experience and expanding the conversation out a little bit more to retail, I think way finding in airports is one thing. I'm sure there's lots of stories that can tell about that, but also, Again, Dubai Mall. We were in there and they've got this massive touchscreen thing and you type the name the shop in that you want to go to or whatever. Not only does come up with what fluorides on it, then pivots and then gives you a map gives you a walking route to show you where you're going It's got this animated person that's going through, tells you the time from there to how long gonna take you to get there, and then it kind of. Goes from a flat to a 3D map, and it's like, it's pretty cool. And I'm sure other shopping malls around the world might have it. I mean, I've only seen it there, but I thought it's gone from just a, static map. Yeah. A thing where you look at and you're trying to work out I'm here. Yeah. And where, how do I get to there too? It's there and it also had a thing where you scan it and then take that way finding with you Yeah. On your mobile device you went through them all. It's pretty cool. and

Iqbal:

and I think this is the bit that I, find really interesting is how do you combine that kind of physical experience, right? If we, kind of, shift attention to For example, I, see a lot of that, right? Where you go into a store and they almost force you to download their app to, to have access to a discount that you can then use, it's how then you use that personalized information you have through that app to be able to deliver that, kind of digital slash physical experience. and I think this is, you know, certainly since the pandemic, we've seen retail completely shift and change to try and. Offer a bit more of a frictionless experience. You're not having to queue anymore, being able to walk out with your goods, right? you're not having to go and, go to a tool and pay for it anymore. Amazon

Vinay:

go. Yeah. Things like that. I think, know, the, returns experience as well. I mean, you know, Amazon recently introduced that you don't even have to box it anymore. You just turn up and drop it in at your post office and for you. I've about. talked about that before. So you've got all these kind of things. I think, you know, and, it'd be interesting what your views on this, but I think going back to data, I think the intention of those apps was always, we want to do that, to collect the data on the customers. I think where it hasn't quite happened is that the usage of that data to curate experiences so the expectations of personalization hasn't quite happened for, so for lots of organizations yet. They've got piles of data. Was talking about this yesterday with in the Cisco thing that it's, data rich. But being starved at actual insight that be able to show you

Iqbal:

it's actionable change isn't it? like how, do you convert that all of this data to actionable change. it's one thing making sense of it, but actually trying to convert that to something that. Can actually make you have a, make a positive impact.

Matt:

Yeah. I, think, when you look at everything you just talked about ultimately it comes down to culture and what you want your culture of your brand and your service product to be. Because as you say, there's more and more data out there that allows you to make more and more informed decisions. When I, look at airports, and again, most of you will nod when you hear this, but. Yeah. Ultimately, going back what I said earlier on, airports only have a small proportion of customer journey. So where they make their money is car parking and retail, and obviously airline charges. But in terms of non-air nautical revenue, they make it of car parking. And, retail. And so car parking, we've all experienced that. We've all experienced the drop off charge at most airports, which is a real grudge purchase for many. but when you look at retail, most of you will have experienced what I call the river, right? So the river is. and they do heat mapping on it is, okay, I'm gonna push you through a walkthrough store where we get a hundred percent footfall, and in fact, the, river of, the rest of your journey means that you will get 100% footfall part foot, footfall past every single front door of, every single retail unit. Well, that's hugely lucrative for the airport because that means they can go to any retailer and go. You could get 100% of X million passengers walking past your front door. or you

Iqbal:

can tell you what you want. Yeah.

Matt:

but, that's massively important, which is why you will see when you next go through an airport, invariably most of them adopt this kind of river model with a hundred percent footfall. Yeah. So that there's no cold spots. It's just hot spots all the, way through the journey. Because no retailer is gonna pay a lot of money for inverted comms, what they call a, cold spot. So, so I think there's the whole piece around. commercial and retail will always drive a large of the investment decision, a large proportion of the investment decision at an airport because that's where they make the money. And if you don't base it around that, you're probably not gonna be in business for a very long time. And that said, you know, when you talked about data and making things better and what you do with the data to improve the physical and digital, I do think there's a lot of airports that are getting it it right and making their decisions. As I mentioned earlier on, I gave some examples of where, investment is taking place to improve the end to end journey. But I think it goes back to a much bigger question on culture. Yeah. So ultimately at board level, are you talking about cx? Are you talking, and I'm not just talking about in airports or, although that's pertinent to our discussion, but are you talking about customer experience at board level? Because if you're not, then what that says to me is that probably that's not part of your culture, in which case your investment decisions aren't necessarily gonna be Based around putting the customer at the forefront of your decision, unless it makes you just a lot of money. Yeah. So, so, and I've been in airport groups where there's talk about offering great service, when you put forward a, CapEx paper for investment in something that's gonna improve service. Invariably, it's kind of all looking at the cost of that versus the potential upside, which will just be an uptick in customer satisfaction scores, We're not prepared to invest Yeah.

Vinay:

Yeah, you, you, yes, absolutely. I agree with you. I'm sitting here shaking my head violently in agreement with you, and I would take it further and chunk up a little bit further and say, it's not just about the, conversation is the conversation about CX is, are they having the about customer experience? In a commercial way. So are they associating but the customer experience has a direct hit on the line? but

Iqbal:

surely the data gives you that, does it not?

Vinay:

It doesn't. And This is the problem, I think, not problem. This is the challenge For cxs that customer experience return on investment over a period of time.

Matt:

Yeah.

Vinay:

It's not always an in year return on revenue. If you're doing things like operational restructuring, reducing head count, if you, know, you can improve the experience and maybe, you know, you can drive revenue and things like that. But actually the overall experience, with the overall return on. Pound Spent on experience is through return purchase. It's through repurchase, it's through advocacy, it's through recommendation. That's the that, then that's harder to prove often when you're doing those cases, but I think the quality of conversation your board has to say, look, We see customer experience as important, not just because it's a nice thing to do in it's service, but we see as an important part of our commercial strategy. because we believe that if you treat people well, if you give them good experiences and you provide touch points that are are simple, easy friction, lust as much as they can be enjoyable and leave people with a feeling that I want to do this again. You've done your job and then people will come back experience that your, thing about Qatar. Airways. There are probably people will go, they'll look at it and go, right, right. I can go to India, or I can go to Australia via Dubai. I can go via Singapore, or I can go via Qatar. You know, maybe I've got my roots wrong. But take that as an example. There'll be people that will go through Qatar and go, actually, do you know what? Next time we fly, we're to go through that airport because was a better experience and we'll choose Qatar Airlines rather than. The other two, they, will prove to that. But as you know, and before, not oil not all equal. Not everybody has that. Level of emotion. Some people it's transactional. people it's just habit and convenience, so you're never gonna get everyone But the holy grail to get people to that emotional level,

Iqbal:

Yeah.

Vinay:

of connection to go, I'm making this choice because I, enjoyed the experience, and therefore I'm making it as my default choice rather than. If there's something else. Well, that comes

Iqbal:

with time, doing it? As you said, there's a combination of things. You almost, you also wanna try and create a community, as well. Right? Yeah. You know, you, going back to the whole, concept of, culture, it's making sure the people that you are hiring, and you mentioned employee experience earlier, and I think that's a big part of it as well. We kind of lose, we focus a lot on. The customer experience, but actually, if you can get your employees fully engaged in the brand and believe in your vision and your culture, then they will move mountains for your customers. and I. I think that Particularly in a physical environment, It's huge, right? We, talk about technology, but actually it's about the people. How they're being trained? Do they really buy into the brand that they're working for? Are they, are you hiring the right sort of people? And again, airports is another example of you get real mixed bang, right? In terms of, you know, people that show a lot of empathy and others actually just see it a job and, you know, treat you like a number.

Vinay:

Yeah. Well, jump in a sec, but I think. you know that of service is the killer of trust for most brands.

Iqbal:

Yeah.

Vinay:

The difference in physical retail is that you can physically see the people that are serving you. In the contact center. You can't see the person messing about in between calls, laying back in their chair, not paying attention. your assumption is they're on the call to you, they're paying attention. Right. But in physical space, you can, and, it can be, again, I was sharing the story yesterday of a, restaurant we had an amazing meal. The server was super friendly, funny, engaging, made us feel like VIPs. We were the only people in that restaurant. Even though it packed, it made us feel that way. And then just, we got moved to the bar area after the meal. And it was a complete different experience. The person that served us was the complete opposite, but yet the same business and this is where culture really comes in. And that driving that culture is about. You know, people often set, people often say to me, oh, but it's gotta come from top. Well, it does get decided at top, but actually I think the powerful layer in any organization where it really grips is the middle management. Because exec set the vision, they set the agenda, and they drive that quality Conversation, but then as it trickles down The organization, you are relying on that Mental management layer to. Lead, manage, connect people to the vision day in, day out, make people feel valued and the same as you, the same as you wanna make a customer feel valued and wanted. That same applies to your people, to your point, which is if you get the insides right, the outsides care of themselves. but I don't know what your, view is on. On that

Matt:

I got, So I, think it's really important to talk about kind of the power of Happy, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, so Airports Council International, which is, a huge governing body, which works with most airports, they've done a huge amount of research that show happy customers spend one and a half times more. So, if I, can get through my experience in security fairly quickly. I feel in a good place, and I'm broadly happy with my experience. Number one, I'll have longer dwell time because I've got through quicker, right? So I've got more time to spend. and number two, I'm gonna be happier. I'm likely to spend more. Versus if I've had a horrendous experience and then, you know, kind of have a less amount of time, I'm probably not gonna spend so much so happy customers. Spend more happy employees. who are well informed with the right tools in the right? place at the right time, they're gonna provide the best service. And, I know it's a bit cliche, but it is true that you know, if you've got, if you treat your people well, they'll look after the customers for you, you know, and they'll do the rest for you. And that's something that we definitely passionately believe in, at Ethos is. And, yeah, I mentioned right at the start of this, we started off as a customer experience business, but actually we very quickly. As said, worse, it's, about employee experience as well, because you don't get the CX without the ex. So, so if you can drive the right employee experience, give people the right training. I did a talk a couple of years ago now, and it was two two, it was an aviation conference actually. And, I asked the question, I asked people to put their hands up as I started the talk, and I said, how many of you understand your company's CX vision? And so a handful of people put their hands up and said, yeah, I understand it. I said, how many people feel confident Do your people understand your CX vision and a load of the hands went down? And bear in mind what I've said about airports that a lot of them are third party, you know, in terms of touchpoint. The third question was, how many you feel confident that your third party operators know your customer vision at that point? Near enough, every single hand went down. So some of the airports are now getting it right, going, okay, we need to be really clear about this. We need to be clear about our vision, clear about what we want, drive the employee experience the best way that we can, but that every single person. Whether they're working directly for us or not, is clear about that vision is incentivized to deliver that vision. and then we reward them when they do it really well. And that's what we work with a lot of airports on.

Vinay:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean the picture you painted there, the thing that comes up to mind to me is that more than anywhere else, collaboration and co Cooperation in an airport is hugely important because yes, your third parties to you want them to understand your CX the airport, but they've also buy into it. And there's also, you've understand their CX vision and find the dots that connect it, because that's how you create the overall. End-to-end experience. I had some experience of this again, at National Express with, you know, we have services going to Heathrow. Heathrow have their own CX and Customer Charter NX had its own, you find it, or, you know, similarly, if we've got coaches going into Victoria, it's not a National Express Station, it's owned by TFL. So the employees aren't necessarily ours, all of them. So you've got all these complications, but when it works, it's because those people, despite the badges they sit under. Have an appreciation and understanding. Of what the, what it is we're trying to deliver and then they co-work better delivery'cause it

Iqbal:

impacts their customer. Yeah. I think if you look at it more holistically and think, actually I've done a great job here. It's not my job to think about what other parts of this experience does. It will, impact my customer. Yeah. So I think if, everybody's thinking that way, then

Vinay:

well, well, well, actually I think it, it's a step further, isn't it? It's you go from my customer, my customer, my customer to the customer.

Iqbal:

Yeah.

Vinay:

That we all contribute to their experience of, because when you're thinking of my customer, there's almost that, well, I own this person. Yeah. The relationships with me, so therefore I've, it's my job to look after them. But it's not, we're all. gonna touch them in some way or shape or form along that journey. And the more collaborative we are, and I think, travel, transport, leisure are massive examples of where you've got parties involved and that, has to be part of the You know, if we're gonna transform railways in this country, same thing. You know, how do you have the conversation, whether it's public, ownership or private ownership, the conversation about all of these parts of the journey. Yeah.

Matt:

But this is where I think regardless of aviation or rail or you know, whatever industry your listeners work in is, this is where the power of procurement can really kick in. So, which a lot of people wouldn't necessarily join up to CX with procurement, but, again, with some of the companies, not just in aviation, but you know, we, as I said earlier on, we work outside of aviation as well, you know. It's all well and good having this vision, but how do you enshrine that in process? Because otherwise you're just gonna sit there and talk about it and go, wouldn't it be great if, yeah. Yeah. And, maybe you can do some training and maybe you can do a big campaign and it will be a big bang and then it will die death within 12 months and everyone go back to the way they are because actually human nature is such that, why would I go, you know, bend over backwards for your brand when I don't work for your brand? Yeah. So I, don't care. I'm bothered about my brand and, that's the way I wanna be. So we do a lot of work procurement now. Where we say, okay, within your procurement packages, when you are procuring services for third party operations, you need to include your CX vision, your CX strategy, your service your training. All of that has to be a prerequisite, and the third party operator has to prove that they've undertaken it. Now, that's been unbelievably quite a bit of a game changer, but one, I think as a nugget that people can take is look. Unless you enshrine it in some sort of process and it has a KPI against it. Your third party operators will move on. Yeah. And so that way it now forms part of monthly boards. That way they get measured against it. Some of them get penalized if they don't operate in the right way. And that's been a, big game changer for a lot of airports and other brands in in other industries who are now getting it right because they're saying, do you know what? We'll take control of the whole of the journey. You are gonna work for us on part of that journey, but in order to do that, you need to prove that all of your team are on brand.

Iqbal:

Yeah. And everybody's got skin in the game, isn't it, as well in that sense. So they're all compelled to actually adhere to this.

Vinay:

it's a, fantastic point. I think, you know, procurement. often one of the forgotten parts of the jigsaw. You know, the services You procure, the supplies you pick, they all have a, they all contribute to that thing. And so if they're not aligned as well, you know, if you go, and if you go and procure software, for example, you know, you came in and sold a certain software, platform and just went for the cheapest one because that was it. And there was no consideration to, how does the culture of the align with us? Do they share the same vision? are they invested in continuous roadmap and all of those kind of things and working with us. It might not feel like it at the time.

Iqbal:

Yeah.

Vinay:

But eventually it has a knock on effect to how How, you work.

Iqbal:

No, Honestly, it does. but I mean, you know, for me personally, I worked for, zoom for a number of years and, you know, with what they did during the pandemic has had such a lasting impact on how people feel about the brand. And it's actually the Easiest thing I've ever sold to a customer because you'd go into a meeting, They know you've come from Zoom. Everybody's got a great story to tell about the fact that they were able to connect with their grandparents or whatever using your service. just tell us where to sign. Like it was, one of the, e and all because of what they had done during that period and even now is that lasting impact, which you can't really quantify. I think in terms of, you know, you can't go to A CFO and say, look, if we. You, you, If we guarantee happiness for our employees and customers. And by the way, that was, the culture when I went into that business.

Matt:

Yeah. The

Iqbal:

CEO was talking, about happy customers, happy employees. And I was like, what does this actually mean? Like these are just words. How do you, how do we actually execute against this type of culture? And. There were the right processes in place. Yeah. Everybody had skin in the game to ensure that, you know, we are,

Matt:

yeah.

Iqbal:

Delivering the right culture for our people and then eventually our customers as well.

Matt:

Yeah. I think, I mean, one thing that we do is Ethos Farm in our People Solutions business. Is, all of our team are regularly audited through a digital audit. and that's on body language, uniform, you know, interactions, how proactive they were with guests. but over and above that you then score points and if you score enough points, you get put into a drawer. And we actually twice a year give away holidays for someone on the front line, plus their partner, plus spending money, which you can imagine if you're coming back and you are on. You know, a, kind of lower wage and you're coming back home say, I just won a holiday for two plus spending money as well. that's the reward if you are permanently on brand against some very key clear metrics that we share with our team, and it's kind of back to that procurement analogy as well. If you can make it clear and you can enshrine it and process, that for me is the way that you get. From the top of the pyramid, from CEO all the way down to the frontline team for people to behave in the same way. Yeah. Because otherwise you don't have that golden thread from the top to the bottom and people go, well, what's in for me? Yeah. I'm not necessarily gonna behave online with the brand that, that you want me to. So all of our team are motivated and incented to do so. And when I talk about great employee experience. That means they're really happy'cause they're in chance for winning holidays. And there's other perks that we, give our team, but they only unlock those perks if they deliver against some key CX Custerian. That, by the way, is in line with the brand that they not necessarily our brand, the brand that they serve. And that for me is a great. Example of how you can kind of pull a vision and strategy down to the frontline team.

Iqbal:

I love that. Yeah. That's really good. I, love the gamification side of it as well. I get the reward element, but actually it gamifies it a little bit like, you know, point system. but a lot of people have mixed feelings about this because it creates competitiveness. But I think competition's great because it helps YouTube. step up your game, right? So you. can really do your good work.

Vinay:

But I mean, look, golden Thread I think is a great place for us to end the conversation. It's been fantastic. Thank you for coming in, Matt. We've really enjoyed having you with us. Yeah, thank you. thank you. I think there's been some real great value in this conversation. and yeah. Listen, Matt, if people wanna find you, if people wanna connect with you, how do they best get in touch with you? you know, have you got a newsletter or have you got a website you want'em go to? what's the thing you'd like to do? Yeah,

Matt:

our website's www.ethosfarm.com. or feel free to just message me directly. I'm on Matt MAT at ethos farm do com and, I'm more than happy to, to, take any questions.

Vinay:

Amazing. Thank you so much for coming in today.

Matt:

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Vinay:

First guests, what did you think of that?

Iqbal:

Yeah, it was amazing. It is a different dynamic having three people, but also a completely different perspective on the physical experience, which is what we kind of touched on. And we talked a lot about airports. Because there's a lot to get through. You don't actually comprehend and realize all the different parts to the customer experience as they kind of walk through it. So it was, yeah, to get that, intel was, really good.

Vinay:

Yeah. I thought, you know, Matt really painted a a vivid picture. You know, often I often use the analogy of, cx, you know, the top of the jigsaw box and everyone having the pieces, but it really just sharp focus on the amount of pieces that are involved Yeah. In the journey. And, you know, I think there is opportunity clearly for digital to play a great role. There's some challenges around data sharing and all those kind of things, but we're starting to see, as you already pointed out, elements of digital coming in. I think it's only gonna grow. And I think that, you know, things like TikTok shop and people buying online, it's currently all online. Might we see a physical representation of TikTok shopping in malls of the future? What will malls of the future look like? What will those spaces look like differently? Yeah. Clearly the challenge in a lot of these places is where we would've, years ago, it would've been the retail space is a place that you come to buy, and that's the only reason you go there. Actually, it's becoming the place where you go for an experience includes buying, but it's broader than just going there to buy.

Iqbal:

Yeah. and I think you're right, it is about, enhancing the experience because actually, you know, there was a time where everybody felt that retail was, dying.'cause of what we've seen with our, own high street Yeah. Brands closing down because everybody's just buying online. Actually that it's shifted now because when you see malls like Westfield for example, they're full of people because they're there for the experience and you, see that reflect inside of the stores as well. Everything's becoming quite digital. I've been speaking to a particular retailer and they're looking to digitize the mirrors.

Vinay:

Yeah.

Iqbal:

So while you're getting changed, it, you'll log in, using a, QR code? Yeah. Yeah. It, will, you'll get personalized experience. It'll know your size, you'll know what kind of things you're interested in. Yeah. You even make suggestions.

Vinay:

Yeah.

Iqbal:

And it will notify the, assistant to bring items to you because you've selected them during this physical experience. I mean, that's just an example of what, these e brands are experimenting with. Yeah. But that's where you've gotta go into that type of experience.

Vinay:

Yeah. and I guess to just kind of wrap up, sorry, I should have said that Matt had to go'cause he's got an important meeting. He's got a critical meeting with the client. So unfortunately he had to go. But, I think to wrap up and kind of bring it back to the kind of the crux of the thing is it all leads back to that experimentation's great, the data's great. Design and experience is great, but if that doesn't connect with the quality of conversation in the boardroom about the importance of experience and the role that it plays. Growth, revenue, retention, all of those factors, then it just becomes quite fragmented things that people do to really bring it together. You've gotta align the lot and have that conversation all the way through your organization from shop floor to, you know, to the chair. Chair person. It's a chair. Then I was gonna get in trouble. Get, don't say that. yeah. So I think, I think that's, really important. So, great. so we'll be back together, to do the next episode soon. If you've got any questions or ideas or topics that you would like us to take on and discuss, if you'd like to be a guest on our podcast, we'd love to hear about, hear from you too.

Iqbal:

Yeah.

Vinay:

but until next time, we'll see you

Iqbal:

on the next episode. Look forward to.